Feudal Japan Ideas

[Timaeus]

But Japan had these advantages OTL, and the Dutch didn't care about religion. Meanwhile, the Spanish actively did use religion to further their own ends.

As Nobunaga would use Christianity to further his end in trying to fight his firmly established Shinto-Buddhist enemies while rallying people under his own banner. In this, he and the Spanish are nominally on the same side. The Dutch don't care about religion, but that doesn't help his cause, which is different from the desire for stability and continuity the Tokugawa shogunate had.

Well, Nobunaga was willing to let Christianity flood in if it meant weakening the monasteries' hold on the population. He'll probably turn on the Jesuits in the event he unifies the country, though, or at least removes the monks from his list of threats.

Yeah. Though perhaps by his death, Catholicism is well established?

Of course, this line of thought could also mean that whoever's shogun by that time might, inspired by an Englishman or Dutchman's account of their religion, break away Japanese Christianity from the Catholic Church a la Henry VIII.

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

Well, Nobunaga was willing to let Christianity flood in if it meant weakening the monasteries' hold on the population. He'll probably turn on the Jesuits in the event he unifies the country, though, or at least removes the monks from his list of threats.

Like Timaeus said, have him go Protestant after a while and the peasants probably won't notice the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

He doesn't need to convert but perhaps one of his successors does if he can keep his power up.

But seriously I could see someone like Nobunaga or Hideyoshi and his successors if you nerfed the Tokugawa at Sekigahara liking Spanish boot in order to get trade on their delicious Andean Silver.

Yeah, Andes Silver from Spanish Peru encouraging the Japanese to maintain trade could make a good TL.

 

[oshron]

any thoughts on my Marco-Polo-visits-Japan idea?

 

[Timaeus]

any thoughts on my Marco-Polo-visits-Japan idea?

Hm, that seems a bit difficult when you consider the vast distances. Like, even if you traverse Dar al-Islam with your Venetian-Muslim detente, you still have either the vast breadth of the steppe and China (by land, which Marco Polo would have taken) or the breadth of India, the East Indies, and then China (by sea) to travel.

He could visit, but it would not likely lead to a permanent trade station.

 

[oshron]

a fair point. but perhaps this could open the door for some other countries setting up trading posts? another thought i'd had was that Indonesians from the then-newly formed Majapahit could have some kind of presence

 

[Timaeus]

a fair point. but perhaps this could open the door for some other countries setting up trading posts? another thought i'd had was that Indonesians from the then-newly formed Majapahit could have some kind of presence

Well, a possible route for the Indonesians is through Champa and China. Another would be a conquest/colonization of Luzon and Taiwan perhaps?

 

[oshron]

Well, a possible route for the Indonesians is through Champa and China. Another would be a conquest/colonization of Luzon and Taiwan perhaps?

by the Indonesians or the Japanese? (your post is worded a bit ambiguously)

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

This may not be a feudal Japan Idea but I think it's worth talking about.


What if the Yamato people who are the current inhabitants of Japan didn't overtake the Jomon people as much to a degree?

The Jomon I think were similar to the Ainu, so what if the Yamato were only able to take a chunk of say Kyushu or Honshu while the rest of Jomon controlled Japan adopted the more advanced technology and was able to at least have a couple centuries of conflict against the Yamato?

What I would see is Japan being somewhat more open to outsiders with a different culture fighting against them and whatnot.

 

[Timaeus]

by the Indonesians or the Japanese? (your post is worded a bit ambiguously)

The former, though the latter doing so would be useful too.

 

[Tredecimus]

So...

...what if Nobunaga escaped Honnoji?

 

[Faeelin]

The problem with converting to Catholicism is that the Jesuits were pretty clearly hoping to use the Catholics to gain control over Japan, to which Nobunaga seems, umm, less than inclined to agree too.

 

[Tredecimus]

The problem with converting to Catholicism is that the Jesuits were pretty clearly hoping to use the Catholics to gain control over Japan, to which Nobunaga seems, umm, less than inclined to agree too.

The point is, Nobunaga more or less know the political power that religions have, so he knew when to actually draw the line.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

I'm wondering if there's a way to somehow open up Japan by the XVIII even if just slightly. Perhaps a big war (Austrian Succession; 7 Years) ends up dragging them as an enemy of the Dutch bombards the one port they have on Nagasaki and things spiral from there?

 

[Timaeus]

The problem with converting to Catholicism is that the Jesuits were pretty clearly hoping to use the Catholics to gain control over Japan, to which Nobunaga seems, umm, less than inclined to agree too.

So? The Shinto-Buddhist monks already controlled the country, to the same extent the holy orders of medieval Europe, or the temples of pagan Rome, controlled their respective lands. The Jesuits were a convenient way to break that control.

Obviously, Nobunaga himself is not going to let the conversion go beyond what it takes to break the monasteries, but make Christianity into a substantial base, and have Nobunaga die at a convenient moment in time with a possible succession crisis, and there you go.

 

[tonsofun]

So...

...what if Nobunaga escaped Honnoji?

I can imagine he will have problems. IMHO it all depends on how soon he can prove he is still alive because I can imagine that rumours of his death will travel faster than he can and by this point the vultures will already be circling. He had a lot of enemies and some of his generals had ambition of their own.
If he manages to keep his position of power he may find himself fighting some of his own officers/vassals including Ieyasu Tokugawa who will make a play for the top at the first opportunity he sees.

 

[Timaeus]

I can imagine he will have problems. IMHO it all depends on how soon he can prove he is still alive because I can imagine that rumours of his death will travel faster than he can and by this point the vultures will already be circling. He had a lot of enemies and some of his generals had ambition of their own.
If he manages to keep his position of power he may find himself fighting some of his own officers/vassals including Ieyasu Tokugawa who will make a play for the top at the first opportunity he sees.

Not to mention that his own obvious heir, Nobutada, is still dead, with a possible succession crisis between his two year old grandson Hidenobu and his second son Nobukatsu.

 

[Tredecimus]

Not to mention that his own obvious heir, Nobutada, is still dead, with a possible succession crisis between his two year old grandson Hidenobu and his second son Nobukatsu.

Who's to say Nobutada is will still die? For all we know, Mitsuhide might delay his attack at Azuchi because he can't confirm if Nobunaga is truly dead.

 

[Timaeus]

Who's to say Nobutada is will still die? For all we know, Mitsuhide might delay his attack at Azuchi because he can't confirm if Nobunaga is truly dead.

I thought the premise was that Mitsuhide attacks, forces Nobutada to commit suicide, and then Honnouji is burned by Ranmaru as Nobunaga commits suicide.

 

[kasumigenx]

The main reason why the Japanese gone to isolation was that they were afraid as they had seen the OTL Philippines conquered..in my TL Sapa, Maguindanao and Sulu are surviving to perhaps to the present and resisting the Spanish giving the Japanese less reasons to isolate themselves..

 

[Sulemain]

How about Japan divided between a southern, Christian-Catholic "Kingdom of Japan" and the rest ruled by an Ikko-Ikki theocratic peasants' republic?