Feodor III survives

krieger

Banned
There are lot of Russian PODs placed in XVII century on this site right now, but I haven't seen this one. Feodor III, Tsar of Russia doesn't die in 1682 and lives since 1718. In addition, he has at least one son with Marfa Apraksina, who is blockin the road to the throne for both Ivan and Petya. Feodor III was well-educated, intelligent and bright-minded person, but he was also a severe polonophile, just as his numbersake Peter III was prusophile. How would it affect his reign? Without regency shenaningans and state of constant political struggles between Miloslavski and Naryshkin families and with capable ruler on the throne Russia would be far better off. On the other hand, after Vienna battle Feodor (driven both by his polonophilia and by the expectation of getting something from Turks) could go straight into war with Turkey. Instead of joining the Holy League in 1686 Russia would join it in 1684. The performance of Russian troops would be much better without internal struggle, but the final result should be that different from OTL and Turkey would be forced to give up something other than Azov to Russia. Maybe Moldova to Poland, if Feodor helps John more eagerly. I think that Feodor would want his son to marry daughter/granddaughter of John III. I don't know if GNW would still happen, but given pro-Polish stance of Feodor and advices of Peter (these two could be very close in ATL) I imagine it happening with similar results as IOTL. And the Polish election is also worth condsidering. I think Feodor could back James Sobieski in the race for the throne, because of polonophilia and the notion that James, lacking any support from his own foreign country (August of Saxony had well...Saxony) would be a easier person for Russians to manipulate. I think we could see Poland becoming a Russian sphere of influence prior to GNW, because John III would be offered Feodor's support in dealing with internal affairs of Poland (perhaps even Russian direct military intervention to secure vivente rege for James, and this isn't even stupid move because even if John III manages to achieve vivente rege and even some government reforms with help of Russians, he isn't going to become an absolute monarch anyhow, and his power is reliable on Russian armed presence, this way the protectorate could be achieved earlier and without a notion from Poles, who would be concentrating their anger meaningless on a King, and not blaming Russians for this situation and ignoring them).
 
The Russian plotline in Apollinis & Dianae TL is pretty much Feodor III survives PoD. Yes, blatant self-promotion, but I used this PoD in two of the TL's I've (co)written - A&D and "Duchess of Cumberland"
(these two could be very close in ATL)
They were reasonably close in OTL, Peter being Feodor's godson and Feodor giving permission to establish Peter's amusement troops, since "Tsars need to learn the art of war since childhood".
Re. performance, a lot depends on competence of higher command, though the only really competent ones who were the victims of Khovanchina were the Dolgorukovs. See the debacle in Ivan V thread about war gains, not going to repost the same. Even in wankish A&D Russia stopped short of conquering the Crimea, though was going to do so in the unwritten sequel.
 

krieger

Banned
The Russian plotline in Apollinis & Dianae TL is pretty much Feodor III survives PoD. Yes, blatant self-promotion, but I used this PoD in two of the TL's I've (co)written - A&D and "Duchess of Cumberland"

They were reasonably close in OTL, Peter being Feodor's godson and Feodor giving permission to establish Peter's amusement troops, since "Tsars need to learn the art of war since childhood".
Re. performance, a lot depends on competence of higher command, though the only really competent ones who were the victims of Khovanchina were the Dolgorukovs. See the debacle in Ivan V thread about war gains, not going to repost the same. Even in wankish A&D Russia stopped short of conquering the Crimea, though was going to do so in the unwritten sequel.

I didn't even know about existence of this TL's when I was posting this thread.

That's why I'm stating that they will remain that way in the extended life of Fyodor. Yes, but even the Dolgorukovs would matter. And I didn't think about conquering Crimea even, my bet was something like Crimean Khanate being forced to give up Kuban to Russians, and the Tsar being recognized as a legal protector of Eastern Christian minorities in Ottoman Empire. And what do You think about Sobieski-Romanov match? Is it even possible for You?
 
Was debated in A&D TL, it was decided that a Catholic Tsarina is ASB. Though we did went with a bit of batty stuff re. having Sophia of Russia marry to Poland TTL (one "rule of cool" thing that I plan to redo if me and Constantine even go around with doing the reboot), the Catholic convertee is too much for Russian establishment right here and now. The Sobieskis were too staunch of Catholics to allow this to happen (though in A&D a cadet branch of Alexander Sobieski did decide that Moldavia is worth giving up the Mass).
The Kuban gains are possible, as is foothold in Caucasus.
 
Also, living to 1718 is HIGHLY unrealistic even with no riding accident of 1674 that crippled Feodor OTL, 1700-1705 I may believe.
 

krieger

Banned
Was debated in A&D TL, it was decided that a Catholic Tsarina is ASB. Though we did went with a bit of batty stuff re. having Sophia of Russia marry to Poland TTL (one "rule of cool" thing that I plan to redo if me and Constantine even go around with doing the reboot), the Catholic convertee is too much for Russian establishment right here and now. The Sobieskis were too staunch of Catholics to allow this to happen (though in A&D a cadet branch of Alexander Sobieski did decide that Moldavia is worth giving up the Mass).
The Kuban gains are possible, as is foothold in Caucasus.

Maybe, but A&D itself seems pretty ASB for me, because it calls Duma a "legislative body" and counterpart of Polish Sejm, when Russia was an absolute monarchy and Feodor wouldn't change this. If John III had a opportunity of making James king immediately, he wouldn't hesitate in my opinion. He would even make a deal with Devil himself to crown his son.
 

krieger

Banned
Also, living to 1718 is HIGHLY unrealistic even with no riding accident of 1674 that crippled Feodor OTL, 1700-1705 I may believe.

So let it be 1705, he dies and he is succeded by his eldest son (I plan of giving him one) Ivan VI (he is named Ivan after his uncle).
 
Maybe, but A&D itself seems pretty ASB for me, because it calls Duma a "legislative body" and counterpart of Polish Sejm, when Russia was an absolute monarchy and Feodor wouldn't change this. If John III had a opportunity of making James king immediately, he wouldn't hesitate in my opinion. He would even make a deal with Devil himself to crown his son.
This is NOT the research mistake, as the Dumas and Zemsky Sobor WERE used this way during this particular reign, it's only Peter who turned things wholly absolutist. Though I do admit that it may be a wording mistake.
 

krieger

Banned
This is NOT the research mistake, as the Dumas and Zemsky Sobor WERE used this way during this particular reign, it's only Peter who turned things wholly absolutist. Though I do admit that it may be a wording mistake.

Still they didn't enjoy level of power comparable to the Polish Sejm and this is what I'm referring to.
 
In fact, a "consultative body" would be more proper wording for what it was used, but this is offtopic. A wording mistake is a wording mistake, you put too much emphasis on "counterpart" word, a legislative body in noble republic is not = a consultative body in semi-absolute monarchy.
 
Duma was more like the Council of Ministers of the later reigns, though Zemsky Sobors were called for important occasions (in A&D - for introduction of new succession laws). But this is burying things down into minutae and nitpicks.

That said, there will not be the economic ruin of OTL Petrine reconstruction, though there will be some rebellions and revolts during the reign (the anti-Muslim laws, abolished in OTL by Sophia, are due to cause some).
 

krieger

Banned
Duma was more like the Council of Ministers of the later reigns, though Zemsky Sobors were called for important occasions (in A&D - for introduction of new succession laws). But this is burying things down into minutae and nitpicks.

That said, there will not be the economic ruin of OTL Petrine reconstruction, though there will be some rebellions and revolts during the reign (the anti-Muslim laws, abolished in OTL by Sophia, are due to cause some).

OK, maybe I put too much emphasis on wording. I'm sorry. There will be rebellions against the anti-Muslim laws, but I think in long-term maintaining them will be better for Russia, because it would weaken the "Mongol" image of Russians in the eyes of Westerners.
 
I think that the domestic reforms that immediately were to follow the abolishment of mestnichestvo - first Russian ranks system (used Greek terms instead of German ones Peter used later on, was also meant to make military service important in the view of the court) and the reform of bishoprics (was half-born in OTL due to Patriarch Joachim resistance, but if the Tsar outlives Patriarch, said new bishoprics may well be created) are interesting.
I also think, that while Marfa Apraxina (or her family) is the interesting consort, the survival of Feodor's first wife (if not a son by her) is more interesting for women's rights in Russia, given that Agafia Grushetskaya was a daughter of Polish noble and knew Western manners (and even some French). She combined piety with openly appearing in public and doing other stuff the old school "domostroi" tsarinas considered unthinkable.
 
There are lot of Russian PODs placed in XVII century on this site right now, but I haven't seen this one. Feodor III, Tsar of Russia doesn't die in 1682 and lives since 1718. In addition, he has at least one son with Marfa Apraksina, who is blockin the road to the throne for both Ivan and Petya. Feodor III was well-educated, intelligent and bright-minded person, but he was also a severe polonophile, just as his numbersake Peter III was prusophile.

Why "but"? The PLC was culturally advanced country comparing to the Tsardom and, AFAIK, copying of their and Hungarian clothes and habits already started during the reign of Tsar Alexei. Definitely more natural than copying habits of the Dutch carpenters, adopting clothes unsuitable for the Russian climate and forcing everybody to smoke (smoking was permitted but on a voluntary basis).

BTW, there was nothing inherently wrong with "prussophilia" of Peter III and Paul: Prussia of Old Fritz was a much better organized state than Russian Empire. Of course, only the silly part of their borrowings is remembered thanks to the negative PR of their successors but there was nothing wrong with the idea of cutting the waste and restoring discipline in the army (among other things to address an issue of the numerous "honorary generals" plaguing Russian court).

How would it affect his reign? Without regency shenaningans and state of constant political struggles between Miloslavski and Naryshkin families and with capable ruler on the throne Russia would be far better off. On the other hand, after Vienna battle Feodor (driven both by his polonophilia and by the expectation of getting something from Turks) could go straight into war with Turkey.

While getting something from Turks was a vaguely defined goal, getting Kiev on a permanent basis from the PLC was precondition in OTL and will remain so in ATL.

Instead of joining the Holy League in 1686 Russia would join it in 1684. The performance of Russian troops would be much better without internal struggle,

Internal struggle had little to do with the fact that Russia was not quite ready for a major confrontation with the Ottomans as was shown by the war of 1676 - 81 (while the Ottomans could not beat the Russian army in a field, the Russians had been forced to abandon Chigirin and Kanev. Strictly speaking, this performance was better than in a Prut campaign but it is rather questionable if the Russian army could manage to progress significantly within a couple of years.

but the final result should be that different from OTL and Turkey would be forced to give up something other than Azov to Russia.

The Turks would give up only something that they lost. So what exactly would they manage to lose in your scenario?

Maybe Moldova to Poland, if Feodor helps John more eagerly.

Fedor could be a polonophil but going into a major war with the main purpose to help the PLC seems to be more than a little bit bizarre. The obvious theaters of war would be Right Bank Ukraine (already tried and failed in the previous war), Crimea (as OTL demonstrated, not the bright idea), areas of low Don and/or Dnieper. Last 2 options could produce some tangible results but nothing truly spectacular.

Marching to Moldavia was not realistic or meaningful at that time or even in Peter's time.


I think that Feodor would want his son to marry daughter/granddaughter of John III. I don't know if GNW would still happen, but given pro-Polish stance of Feodor and advices of Peter (these two could be very close in ATL) I imagine it happening with similar results as IOTL.

There was no reason for Fedor and Peter to be close (their maternal clans were the bitter enemies) and why would anybody ask for Peter's advice on the issue of Ingria? An attempt of getting it back (and not paying Swedes the custom dues for the goods sold in Narva) was just a matter of time and opportunity. Bringing Polish wife into the family was problematic: the Catholics were not welcomed unless they switch to the Orthodoxy.
 
OK, maybe I put too much emphasis on wording. I'm sorry. There will be rebellions against the anti-Muslim laws, but I think in long-term maintaining them will be better for Russia, because it would weaken the "Mongol" image of Russians in the eyes of Westerners.

The Mongols were not Muslims.
 
Maybe, but A&D itself seems pretty ASB for me, because it calls Duma a "legislative body" and counterpart of Polish Sejm, when Russia was an absolute monarchy and Feodor wouldn't change this. If John III had a opportunity of making James king immediately, he wouldn't hesitate in my opinion. He would even make a deal with Devil himself to crown his son.

Vivente rege was high treason in Poland since Bona Sforza used it as a 'one hit wonder' to get Sigmund Augustus crowned/nominated in his dad's lifetime. Jan II and his French wife had tried it as recently as the 1650s and it had backfired. Badly. So, no, I don't think they're going to be going for a VR idea anytime soon. Killing Jakub off might also be a "good" idea. The guy seemed mostly apathetic, plus his issues with mom in the 1690s muddied the water. Had he been dead, it's likely that Marysienka would've backed second son, Alexander (rather than Maximilian II of Bavaria), but @Valena and @Jan Olbracht might have more insight into the matter.
 
There was no reason for Fedor and Peter to be close (their maternal clans were the bitter enemies)
They WERE close in OTL, despite the emnity. In fact, if not for Fedor's intervention, Peter would have been killed back in 1677. It's unrealistic that he would ignore his godson (!) as teenager/adult OTOH. Google the Bogdanov's books on Feodor, they touch on this topic.
Regarding Miloslavskis (not Golitsin), they are unlikely to stay in power for too long during this reign - Fedor had bitter quarrel with his Miloslavski uncle re. his first marriage and removed him from court pretty much.
 
The Mongols were not Muslims.
You missed the point. I talked about possible turmoil in Volga region/current Tatarstan caused by OTL 1682 law banning Muslim gentry from owning Christian serfs (some did happened in OTL, and the law was canceled by Sophia).
 
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