Fenian Inavasions of Canada

[thezerech]

So, I'm in the midst of writing a TL, with an emphasis on the Second Mexican Empire, and poor Anglo American relations throughout the 19th century. With an eventual goal of U.S joining the Central Powers. I realize that a larger Fenian Invasion of Canada will polarize Ango-American relations for decades.

"The plan was for a three-pronged invasion, with a goal of capturing Quebec, and making it the seat of the Irish Republic-in-exile. western wing of 3,000 men was to gather in Chicago and Milwaukee, under the leadership of Brigadier-General Charles Tevis, a West Point graduate. A central wing of 5,000 men was to gather in Cleveland and Buffalo. General John O’Neill, a colonel in the Union army and a native of Drumgallon, County Monaghan, would be appointed leader of this group. But these two brigades were meant to be feints for the largest wing. A force of 16,800 Fenians would assemble in St. Albans, Vermont under the leadership of Brigadier-General Samuel M. Spear. Spear’s troops would deploy after Tevis and O’Neill made landfall, and would march on Montreal as the army of the Crown rushed westward to stave off the invaders and to protect Toronto, a likely target for the Fenians."

(-IrishAmerica.com; The Day the Irish Invaded Canada)

I understand that out of 5,000 planned men, O'Neil only got a little more than one thousand. However if we butterfly away the Battle of Campobello island I think Fenian support and moral will be higher yielding more troops for the Irish. Aswell as giving them more time to prepare, and gather their forces.

With for example something along this disposition of forces? Remember Anglo American relations are already worse ITTL due to certain events in Mexico. Meaning more Fenian sympathy. Perhaps we could also have the Fenians attack through different cities. I know the mayor of Buffalo was opposed to the Fenian vehemently, maybe have O'Neil go through Cleveland?

Essentially what happens if they get through the border? With something along this force disposition? I don't think they'll succeed I'm just wondering how far would they get?

• General John O’Neil’s command consists of some 2,300 men in Cleveland and launch an attack across lake Erie.
  
  
• Brigadier-General Charles Tevis’ force consists of some 800 men attack through Chicago.
  
  
• Brigadier-General Samuel P. Spear’s force would consists of 12,000 Fenians, march through Vermont and against Montreal.
  
  
  

 

[water123]

They'd scare the hell out of some people, that's for sure. The proble is even if they were able to take over a good part of Canada, if the revolt got too bad England would use troops from the rest of it's colonies to stop them, along with reprisals towards the Irish in Ireland proper.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Historically there were 15,000 Imperial troops in the Province of Canada in 1866, and when the alarm went out for the Fenian invasion 14,000 militiamen answered the call. Were troubles with the US far more severe it is likely that more Imperial troops would be on station.

Despite that the Fenian plans were flawed from the start. They depended on low turn out by the militia, being able to gather supplies from the population, and they did not possess any means of resupply for themselves. Historically (Campbello, Ridgeway, Eccles Hill) whenever the regulars showed up the Fenians ducked out rather quick, and they lost most of their weaponry and ammunition doing so. That's not to say more men showing up might not make them bolder, but they simply don't have the logistics capacity to feed and supply large forces for any extended period of time. Certainly not to the extent Imperial troops do.

Even if the Fenians managed a modicum of success the result would simply be the dispatch of more British troops and the mobilization of the Canadian militia more than OTL. Unless the US Army were to get involved the Fenians are simply doomed.

 

[James XI]

Yeah, I'm thinking you'd need limited Fenian success to gradually draw the U.S. into the conflict via shifting agreements of 'protection' of w/e acquired territory the Fenians might lay claim to. That or somehow make common cause with disenfranchised French Canadians...but it's a real stretch.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Yeah, I'm thinking you'd need limited Fenian success to gradually draw the U.S. into the conflict via shifting agreements of 'protection' of w/e acquired territory the Fenians might lay claim to. That or somehow make common cause with disenfranchised French Canadians...but it's a real stretch.

I think the point is the US Government would need a lot of Fenian success to move them to offer any backing. The only way the British can hurt the unsupported Fenians is by actually catching them, they can scuttle back to America with their tails between their legs and plot anew. This assumes though the US remains on civil...possibly cool but civil terms as war with the US is expensive. If the US starts being less civil and more pro-Fenian the range of options for hurting the US on the other hand is rather large and costly even if the British decide to stop short of war...a few quiet words in gentlemen's clubs and liquidity in the US contracts sharply for example.

Thus even if you believe the US Government is sympathetic the best help it can give the Fenians is by being equally unhelpful to both sides.

 

[Saphroneth]

While the British Army of 1866 isn't quite as big as it was in 1861-3, it's still pre-Cardwell and as such has quite a lot of deployable manpower. There's roughly 47 battalions at home (Army List 31 Mar 1866, counting infantry Bns only), and these are the days when a moderately fast transport can cross the Atlantic in two weeks. Based on OTL mobilization rates, from a cold start the British can put reinforcements in Canada in a month and get a good couple of divisions in fairly quickly after that, so the Fenians succeeding in taking Canada essentially relies on both "surprise" and "Britain doesn't bother to do anything about them".

If the Fenians face British regulars in the field they're cooked - this is the Hythe period and the British infantry are trained to shoot down their opponents at 600+ yards.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Just based on logistics, I'm thinking a successful Fenian Brotherhood in Canada just doesn't happen. They might do some more damage but eventually they'd come up against British regulars and fall short. I doubt the US army gets involved, either; they've got their hands full trying to rebuild the South.

 

[thezerech]

I wasn't actually asking if they could succeed because personally I don't think they could have. I'm just wondering how far they would get? From the consensus I imagine it would panick the hell out of the British, but they wouldn't take Québec or Montreal. I imagine the U.S cutting off Fenian supplies by presidential order once Johnson realises just what is going on.

I imagine a possibility is a few small scale victories for the Fenians, then perhaps one large phyrric victory to convince them to return to the United States and give up on invading Canada.

One thought I had recently was, what about the possibility of a Québeçois uprising? After all they are fellow Catholics, I don't know if the Québeçois would have revolted since my Canadian history is fairly poor.

 

[funnyhat]

One thought I had recently was, what about the possibility of a Québeçois uprising? After all they are fellow Catholics, I don't know if the Québeçois would have revolted since my Canadian history is fairly poor.

It's Québécois, with a hard "c" - no cedilla.

In OTL there actually was very substantial intermarriage between Irish immigrants and the Canadiens - it's said that today around 30-40% of the Québécois have some degree of Irish ancestry. So it's not entirely out of the question that they could find some common cause.

There was a Canadien rebellion in 1837 but it was opposed by the Catholic Church. If things are different so that Catholics feel threatened and the Irish pose themselves as defenders of the faith, there are a lot of different possibilities.

 

[thezerech]

It's Québécois, with a hard "c" - no cedilla.

In OTL there actually was very substantial intermarriage between Irish immigrants and the Canadiens - it's said that today around 30-40% of the Québécois have some degree of Irish ancestry. So it's not entirely out of the question that they could find some common cause.

There was a Canadian rebellion in 1837 but it was opposed by the Catholic Church. If things are different so that Catholics feel threatened and the Irish pose themselves as defenders of the faith, there are a lot of different possibilities.

I'm sorry about that, you'd think after six years of French I'd be able to tell....

In all seriousness, for the sake of the main goal of the TL, and the reason I'm changing the Fenian Invasion is merely to stress Anglo-American relations, without severely changing geopolitics, until the 1890s. I could probably write a TL about a Fenian invasion succeeding with PODS in the 1830s, but that's not the one I'm writing right now. Ideally, I'd like to see the Fenians have a big epic struggle, then after fighting well, they retreat back after the invasion becomes unfeasible due to lack of arms/supplies. I think Johnson's poor handling of this crisis will play into some other things I want to happen in the U.S politically, during the 1876 elections. To cause a certain democrat who never was able to actually run, to win the election. Essentially I just want to know whether the U.S accidentally allowing the Fenians to do this, will cause a war with Britain even if they stop Fenian supplies/Reinforcements from crossing the border, and how close can the Fenians come without starting a war? Because that will sour relations more, if they actually get close to victory in Canada.

 

[Magyarország]

One thought I had recently was, what about the possibility of a Québeçois uprising? After all they are fellow Catholics, I don't know if the Québeçois would have revolted since my Canadian history is fairly poor.

During the OTL Fenian raids, i.e. mid-60s? Pretty much none whatsoever. Regardless of French Canadian sympathies towards the Irish, the Fenian invaders were perceived as supported by the Americans and if there was anything that pushed the British colonies in NA to form the Canadian confederation was fear of American expansionism and the Fenians iOTL caused the final push for confederation. At that point, both French and Anglo-Canadians were cooperating pretty tightly in order to create a stable United-Canadian government and pave the way to Confederation.

 

[thezerech]

During the OTL Fenian raids, i.e. mid-60s? Pretty much none whatsoever. Regardless of French Canadian sympathies towards the Irish, the Fenian invaders were perceived as supported by the Americans and if there was anything that pushed the British colonies in NA to form the Canadian confederation was fear of American expansionism and the Fenians iOTL caused the final push for confederation. At that point, both French and Anglo-Canadians were cooperating pretty tightly in order to create a stable United-Canadian government and pave the way to Confederation.

So, a Quebecois uprising is unlikely? Well, considering I never intended them to succeed in capturing Canada so I'm not very disappointed. Would a much more successful though of course ultimately failing Fenian Invasion change the way Canada unifies into the Confederation? Wasn't Newfoundland separate until after WWII? Would they join with the rest of Canada?

 

[Magyarország]

So, a Quebecois uprising is unlikely? Well, considering I never intended them to succeed in capturing Canada so I'm not very disappointed. Would a much more successful though of course ultimately failing Fenian Invasion change the way Canada unifies into the Confederation? Wasn't Newfoundland separate until after WWII? Would they join with the rest of Canada?

Considering American Threat and Railroads were the main attractions to Confederation and Newfoundland won't get railroads and perceives no threat from the US, they won't join any earlier unless London forces them to like in OTL. The same reasons of OTL for them to refuse Confederation are still there even if the Fenians are an even bigger threat. It doesn't affect them, after all.

Edit: Oh, and considering the timing of the Fenian raids, it won't change much for Canadian unification. The process had already begun and the raids only accelerated the process. I don't think it can get any earlier than 1867 unless the raids are earlier, which is another can of worms considering the timing is also affected by the Civil War...

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I wasn't actually asking if they could succeed because personally I don't think they could have. I'm just wondering how far they would get? From the consensus I imagine it would panick the hell out of the British, but they wouldn't take Québec or Montreal. I imagine the U.S cutting off Fenian supplies by presidential order once Johnson realises just what is going on.

Well the general idea is that they are too disorganized and incapable of ressuply to accomplish much beyond seizing a few border towns before a British response gears up. Basically the attempt from Cleveland through Chicago would probably briefly overwhelm the local militia until a larger force could be organized, while the 12,000 men marching from St. Albans Vermont are doomed by geography. They are on the wrong side of the river to make an easily coordinated strike against Montreal, and would basically be turned back once they couldn't cross the waters at St. Jean.

They really had a terrible plan.

 

[Magyarország]

Well the general idea is that they are too disorganized and incapable of ressuply to accomplish much beyond seizing a few border towns before a British response gears up. Basically the attempt from Cleveland through Chicago would probably briefly overwhelm the local militia until a larger force could be organized, while the 12,000 men marching from St. Albans Vermont are doomed by geography. They are on the wrong side of the river to make an easily coordinated strike against Montreal, and would basically be turned back once they couldn't cross the waters at St. Jean.

They really had a terrible plan.

Seriously. How did they even plan to occupy Montreal, let alone Quebec? They have to cross the Saint Lawrence and occupy the few forts around the city, which would be crowling with militia... while Quebec city is very well fortified...

Montreal in 1865 was no 1776 Montreal. What were they thinking?

 

[RodentRevolution]

Montreal in 1865 was no 1776 Montreal. What were they thinking?

Probably that Montreal in 1865 was 1776 Montreal people managed to get hooked on their memes long before the internet.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Seriously. How did they even plan to occupy Montreal, let alone Quebec? They have to cross the Saint Lawrence and occupy the few forts around the city, which would be crowling with militia... while Quebec city is very well fortified...

Montreal in 1865 was no 1776 Montreal. What were they thinking?

They had this sunny sense of optimism...

But more seriously, the idea for attacks on Canada was originally conceived as a distraction to focus the British attention elsewhere while there was an uprising in Ireland proper. Of course the different wings of the Fenian party disagreed on the way the plan should be carried out and eventually split which meant they were completely dysfunctional as an organization.

The other major problem though was that while many Fenians were willing to take up arms and march into Canada, not too many of them were really willing to die in a campaign where they were just knowing pawns on a chess board.

 

[thezerech]

They had this sunny sense of optimism...

But more seriously, the idea for attacks on Canada was originally conceived as a distraction to focus the British attention elsewhere while there was an uprising in Ireland proper. Of course the different wings of the Fenian party disagreed on the way the plan should be carried out and eventually split which meant they were completely dysfunctional as an organization.

The other major problem though was that while many Fenians were willing to take up arms and march into Canada, not too many of them were really willing to die in a campaign where they were just knowing pawns on a chess board.

Yeah, I have them taking the British by surprise, getting to the 'walls' of Toronto and Montreal, then realizing they're totally fucked. Out of ammo, with no reinforcements, out gunned, and with no artillery. Essentially they win a few minor battles, and one Pyrrhic victory. Then run back to the U.S with their tail between their legs. The point is to get Anglo-American relations really bad, and American-Canadian relations really, really, bad.

 

[Anaxagoras]

One of the British commanders in Canada in 1866 was Garnet Wolseley.

The Fenians will run away when they see the glare in his eyes.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Yeah, I have them taking the British by surprise, getting to the 'walls' of Toronto and Montreal, then realizing they're totally fucked. Out of ammo, with no reinforcements, out gunned, and with no artillery. Essentially they win a few minor battles, and one Pyrrhic victory. Then run back to the U.S with their tail between their legs. The point is to get Anglo-American relations really bad, and American-Canadian relations really, really, bad.

Well the Fenians had been so heavily infiltrated by British agents and informers at this point that catching the British by surprise (especially with a force the size you're suggesting) would require phenomenal levels of luck. The raids in 1866 weren't really a surprise, and all the subsequent raids even less so.

Getting to Montreal would be beyond the Fenians IMO, but making it all the way to Toronto would be doable. Montreal is out of the question, I believe, simply because the plan calls for them to march on the wrong side of the Richelieu River (they have to avoid the US fort at Rouse Point) through broken and hilly country. That doubles the trouble they already have and forces them to have to fight a major river crossing somewhere, something they really don't have the equipment to do.

Toronto is slightly more doable. Marching fast enough they could probably catch some militia by surprise and get to Hamilton, but even then, the railroads are all in the hands of the defenders so forces could be concentrated rather rapidly to oppose them, so there will be a fight somewhere before they get as far as Toronto. One which will undoubtedly involve the regulars.

Though this will certainly damage relations with Canada and the British, especially if the Fenians are seen as being able to mobilize with American compliance.

One of the British commanders in Canada in 1866 was Garnet Wolseley.

The Fenians will run away when they see the glare in his eyes.

Well that would be eye technically. He lost the other one courtesy of a Russian shell in the Crimea. Not that that even slowed him down remotely of course...