Female Legionaries

Avitus

Elfwine said:
I know I've read something on it somewhere, but I can't remember. It's enough to matter - you might find some women who can keep up with the above average men, but it would be very small.

I think "equal to the average man" might be easier than 5%, but "able to serve as medium/heavy infantry or cavalry" would be smaller. Maybe not quite as bad in some other societies - like the Scyhtians - but Roman women, even Roman commoners, don't have a lot of experience with being expected to literally do the heavy lifting, so nature and nurture reinforce each other.
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I have no doubt that there are women who can surpass the vast majority of above average men (womens' ultimate fighting has more than proved that), but I think their number is too small to count on them showing up in any numbers in a military force, so that would be more useful if we were trying to get a Roman Joan of Arc rather than a female legion.

5% is just an educated guess, since I doubt reliable statistics exist for a subject as obscure as the number of women who are stronger than the average man. As for the bit about nature and nurture, true, gender stereotypes could definitely cause Roman women to be weaker than their Scythian counterparts. I suppose that just makes female legionnaires les likely, even compared to female soldiers in other militaries at the time.
 

Elfwine

Avitus said:
I have no doubt that there are women who can surpass the vast majority of above average men (womens' ultimate fighting has more than proved that), but I think their number is too small to count on them showing up in any numbers in a military force, so that would be more useful if we were trying to get a Roman Joan of Arc rather than a female legion.
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Yeah. If we were specifically recruiting a couple legions worth, we could argue on if that's possible (that many women out of this population), but two legions when Rome had (supposedly) potentially three quarters of a million men able to be enrolled is small indeed.

5% is just an educated guess, since I doubt reliable statistics exist for a subject as obscure as the number of women who are stronger than the average man. As for the bit about nature and nurture, true, gender stereotypes could definitely cause Roman women to be weaker than their Scythian counterparts. I suppose that just makes female legionnaires les likely, even compared to female soldiers in other militaries at the time.
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Indeed. So for discussion's sake, 5% seems worth using unless someone does want to do more exact math - it gives us a sense of what we're talking about relative to the population and army sizes, which is what we need.
 

DominusNovus

Agricola said:
Roman economy was about 80% agriculture. It is pretty obvious, that during the punic wars and other catastrophes a lot of farms and other business was run by females. Not a problem.

The roman authors just forgot to mention it, because is was self-evident.
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This is such an important point. In any agricultural society - from the earliest pre-industrial days right up to rural areas today - the women are a crucial part of the labor force. The crops are not going to stop needing weeding and watering while the men are away fighting. The livestock are certainly not going go without being fed. Wolves aren't going to take a break from chasing the lambs and calves. The children and slaves aren't going to do all their chores reliably.

Its easy to forget just how close agrarian civilization is to death at any given time. Think of all the societies that could handle wars that would kill off many of their men, but are brought low by plagues that kill off men and women without discrimination.
 

Gurroruo

images


Here's a pic.

Anyways the chance of female legionaries requires: Terrible total decimation of all legions in epic battle, lethal disease that only affects, sacking of Rome, and finally the suicide of all senators after passing the bill. In other words if you what to do a TL with this use the ASB section.
 
Russian

Russian

Simreeve said:
IIRC it's one of the stories about Sun Tzu.
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Swordman said:
Russian:

That would be none other than Sun Tzu. The women were recruited from among the Emperor's concubines. Two of them didn't think Sun Tzu was serious, so they started to giggle. Sun Tzu promptly had them both executed to encourage the others....

It worked.

Mike Garrity
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Simreeve, Swordman, thank you.
I guess Sun Tzu knew how to treat a woman. :D
 

KillerT

Romans hardly ever wore leg armour. Only really invested in it when they faced the Dacians with their falx weapon. After all that shield was pretty much designed to cover pretty much everything. It's a heavy beast too. I have a Norman kite shield and that's heavy enough. Standing in battle for a few hours carrying a heavy shield, a helmet, body armour probably not designed originally for the female form and then wielding a pole arm about, very knackering work requiring lots of conditioning first. Our reenactment battles tend to only last about half an hour and they wear you out, the poleams get heavier and heavier, your padded armour makes you sweat like a pig and if it's a warm day if you have any plate armour, well you bake. Took my helmet off after one event last year and I swear I could have cooked an egg on its surface!
(I reenact 15th century wearing a gambeson, padded inner helmet, a sallet helmet, bevor, breastplate, jack chains, other kit being a sword, buckler shield, bill (cross between a spear and axe), wool hose, linen shirt, doublet and braies, plus turn shoes. I do have leg harness and gauntlets but rarely bother with them, all of that weighs around 70lbs possibly more)( when I don't fancy hand to hand I do archery using either my crossbow or longbow, all a tad lighter as I can leave out the bevor and breastplate and swop the heavy sallet for a lighter rondel skullcap helmet I have)
 

Henriksson

caliburdeath said:
I'm surprised you picked out the boob armor instead of no leg armor.
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I thought of that, but I was of the impression that leg armour wasn't all that common in the Roman army.

Sure, it'd be more realistic to be cut off, but it's really not that unrealistic.
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It severely restricts the ability of body armour to deflect blows - it's one of the standard "pet peeves" that althistorian, fantasy etc. artists should avoid.
 

hopper2cool

I understand people imagine the Gladius as the main weapon of the Roman Legions but in reality wasnt it the pillum (pilum?) that did most of the actual work? And if so how would most women do throwing a pillum?
Like most people in this thread I can see an elite female guards. Or being used for city defense when losing means getting raped and the young pretty ones sold into slavery and death for the rest. But a regular Legion? Probably not.
 

caliburdeath

Henriksson said:
It severely restricts the ability of body armour to deflect blows - it's one of the standard "pet peeves" that althistorian, fantasy etc. artists should avoid.
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I don't understand. Do you mean, as it's a surface to catch the blows which would have otherwise been reflected away?
hopper2cool said:
Like most people in this thread I can see an elite female guards. Or being used for city defense when losing means getting raped and the young pretty ones sold into slavery and death for the rest. But a regular Legion? Probably not.
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Could you get some form of regular female police, or the equivalent? Perhaps far removed from a legion, but still rather military in antiquity, I would think.
 

DominusNovus

caliburdeath said:
Could you get some form of regular female police, or the equivalent? Perhaps far removed from a legion, but still rather military in antiquity, I would think.
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Female police in a pre-industrial society... probably one of the few ideas worse than a female military. Yes, lets send women to apprehend the city's rapists. That won't backfire horrendously.
 

Elfwine

DominusNovus said:
Female police in a pre-industrial society... probably one of the few ideas worse than a female military. Yes, lets send women to apprehend the city's rapists. That won't backfire horrendously.
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No attempted rape, but an excellent illustration of how a smaller and (supposedly) weaker woman can mitigate the obvious disadvantages extremely effectively:

http://notalwaysright.com/this-well-defend/21969

So given proper training, no, it won't.


Judo (to name something most of us should be able to recognize) may not exist in Rome, but developing techniques that work on the same principle - or even simply having trained fighters who know how to do various incapaciating moves - is far from unrealistic for a society willing to enlist women in such roles in the first place.
 

caliburdeath

Henriksson said:
Some more information here.
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Learning every day...
DominusNovus said:
Female police in a pre-industrial society... probably one of the few ideas worse than a female military. Yes, lets send women to apprehend the city's rapists. That won't backfire horrendously.
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Not an entirely invalid point, but
1) Squads of
2) men and
3) women trained with weaponry and armor, in individual combat
4) all chosen based upon equal physical criteria
obviously this would make women a fairly small percentage of the force, but, goddammit, it's getting women in a militant role.
 

DominusNovus

caliburdeath said:
Learning every day...


Not an entirely invalid point, but
1) Squads of
2) men and
3) women trained with weaponry and armor, in individual combat
4) all chosen based upon equal physical criteria
obviously this would make women a fairly small percentage of the force, but, goddammit, it's getting women in a militant role.
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See, thats a different scenario than a female police force, that a police force that admits women.
 

DominusNovus

Elfwine said:
No attempted rape, but an excellent illustration of how a smaller and (supposedly) weaker woman can mitigate the obvious disadvantages extremely effectively:

http://notalwaysright.com/this-well-defend/21969

So given proper training, no, it won't.


Judo (to name something most of us should be able to recognize) may not exist in Rome, but developing techniques that work on the same principle - or even simply having trained fighters who know how to do various incapaciating moves - is far from unrealistic for a society willing to enlist women in such roles in the first place.
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50% of the women in that story can handle themselves. You want to be the one that flips the coin to decide whether or not prefect Aemilia is going to be alright?

Sure, the state will weed out the weaker candidates. But you know what else is a good process for weeding out the weak? Being part of the criminal underground.
 
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