Ehh, you're probably right on the Polish part, but it's very unlikely that Germany would want to hold onto all that Italian land, on top of the Slovene and Czech land they'd already have to deal with. Plus, holding onto Lombardy immediately makes Sardinia-Piedmont extremely hostile
Feasibility of Grossdeutchland
- Thread starter sampleswift
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Why not? Lombardo and Venetia prefered the habsburg goverment than the piedomentese or garibaldi mobs, so they can easily stay on the union without implications and Bohemia and Slovene is not an issue at all, again is a sick ASB fantasy this place have and i'm sick of it too.
And i doubt the hohenzollern and habsburgs(and even both prussia court and frankfurt congress would care at all about piedmontese feelings)
Prussia was the focus of the kulturkampf, and the effects of it were national rather than just related to Prussia, as it energized the Centre Party and the amalgmation of interests among Catholics who otherwise would not have had much in common (Polish minorities, Bavarians, and Right Bank Rhenish citizens made for an interesting coalition). In fact, the impact on Prussia itself was quite minimal, even though that is where the legislation took effect, because there just weren't all that many Catholics, and those that were there had long been used to living under non-Catholic rule.
The potential threat is not a national imposition of one religion over the other, which would have been impossible, a question answered repeatedly in the bloody period from the Peaces of Augsburg to Westphalia.
It rather would have come in the form of the attitude of Austrians to the whole controversy, which was likely to be far less focused on democracy than the Centre Party, considering the history of clerical power in Austria. It is very possible that the acceptance of Austria to rule from Berlin would be imperiled by this controversy, as the forces emphasizing panGermanism in Austria were not yet very strong, and only would become so after the internal reforms of the Hapsburg Empire later on in the 19th century that empowered the non-German sections of the Empire.
That is the thing, i doubt a grossdeutchland would be ruled from berlin, either would be Koln/Cologne, frankfurt or Prague
It's less about the actual wishes of the people in Lombardy and more about the international diplomatic repercussions of holding onto it
They would not care that much, as any germany would be an internal process, as say before, the savoy were not friend a lot of germans so they would not care a lot their feelings. Plus Venetia was the home of Austrian Navy, so will have a massive say in the new germany
There's nothing really stopping them from just using Trieste instead of Venetia, and granting that land to Sardinia-Piedmont would help them create an alliance between the very-soon-to-form Italy and Germany. Trading a part of land that would likely cause later diplomatic and internal issues in exchange for having a major European power as an ally against other potential wars against France or the United Kingdom is definitely a wise choice
Again why? there not chance piedmont would not goes his way, something i loved in decades of darkness,,,nope great germany unify with lombardo-venetia and no one give a damn about the Savoyards feeling, so yeah giving it for nothing is ASB itself
I just explained the reasons that they would have to do so... I think you're misunderstanding the term "ASB".
giving reason don't make it less impausable, i think will not, if anything as say before, the populations prefered austrian rule over the savoyard, that not change, so yeah they would enter the union anyway
What happens to Hungary in this scenerio? Do they go to a relative to the Habsburg? Or does Hungary get absorbed into the “Empire”
No one(not even the germans and hungars themselves) wanted them in the empire, at best it ended up in Max hands or other Habsburg available, becoming an independant kingdom, with Crotia and Galicia-lodemaria
Thomas1195
Banned
And never forget that German nationalist movement never wanted non-German lands except for Tyrol and Bohemia. This was one of the biggest deadlock.
You have evidence for that?
Incidentally you don't necessarily even get a Zollverein right away. Hamburg and Bremen didn't join it until 1888, so Austria may not do so either for quite a while.
How do you work that out?
In 1870 German army estimated were £9.6 million, against 7.4m for Austria-Hungary and 15m for France. Economically, Germany produced 1.3m tons of pig iron, against 1.2m for France and 6m for GB. In steel production Germany and France were dead level on 0.3m, with GB at 0.7m.
As yet, Germany wasn't even close to overshadowing anybody. Nor did her 1879 alliance with (A/H) - effectively the same as GD in a military sense) produce any immediate reaction. It took a further fifteen years for France and Russia to form a counter-alliance. Doesn't sound as if they were all that agitated.
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The secret of getting a Grossdeutschland is to have Britain supportive and trusting towards whichever power is uniting Germany. If they are facing an aggressive France and a scary Russia, Britain could jump at the chance of building a counterweight. This is especially the case if the emerging Germany can paint itself as a champion of liberal vs France/Russia. Then you can have France knocked out by encirclement and Russia collapse in revolution and it's a done deal.
Are you sure that the Ottoman Empire would be happy to have Russia alone in the Balkans? I think Austria and the Ottomans needed each other to exist for their own preservation.
And about the feasibility of the Grossdeutchland, I think that this depends on their neighbors, Great Britain would be neutral if they believe that France and Russia are a bigger thread (of course they would realize the mistake and change their position too late). And if the germans can settle an agreement with Russia like a free hand against the Ottomans none would try to intervene.
These were not in-charge and the ruling authorities did not have to respect what exactly they wanted.
Austria wanted to join since the early 1850s. They would have joined if Prussia had not blocked them.
Interestingly, Metternich understood that Prussia's dominance in the new Zollverein was a real political problem for his side.
Grossdeutschland, as the concept mainly refered to the ideal of the German revolutions of 1848-49, would not work as it was originally conceived by then because it was hard to achieve any kind of durable balance between Prussia (which had a let's say ethnic conception of Empire, excluding i.e. Hungary or Venice) and Austria (which had a less nationalistic view and somehow more liberal policies). One or the other should cede, and none really wanted to try.
For achieving something territorially similar to Grossdeutschland during the 19th century, one of the two should have smashed the other: maybe a different aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars would have weakened Prussia enough to let Austria to impose a revamped HRE led by Vienna, including the both the German states and the other Habsburgian realms, something like a daydream for the Habsburgs. In the other side, maybe Prussia could have smashed Austria in a deeper way in 1866, enough for breaking the Empire, get Austria inside the German Empire and kick Hungary out. However, both scenarios would be pretty unlikely.
For achieving something territorially similar to Grossdeutschland during the 19th century, one of the two should have smashed the other: maybe a different aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars would have weakened Prussia enough to let Austria to impose a revamped HRE led by Vienna, including the both the German states and the other Habsburgian realms, something like a daydream for the Habsburgs. In the other side, maybe Prussia could have smashed Austria in a deeper way in 1866, enough for breaking the Empire, get Austria inside the German Empire and kick Hungary out. However, both scenarios would be pretty unlikely.
What exactly would constitute a GD?
If the Diet of the German Confederation makes a law that an invasion or blockade of the dominions of any Federal Prince shall be treated as an attack on all, and as a declaration of war against all members, is that a GD? If it created a like duty to assist one another to suppress insurrection, would that make it one?
If they pass another law, perhaps a year or two later, making all subjects of a Federal Prince liable to a term of military service, which by a curious coincidence is set at three years (the term Wilhelm I wants for the Prussian Army) is that a GD?
If a bit later still they decree that the soldiers of all member states shall wear a common uniform on active service, with the old uniforms being used only on ceremonial occasions, is that a GD?
If they enact another measure that the forces of member states shall use weapons of a standard calibre, etc, so that the weapons of all states are interchangeable and can be used by any other. Is that a GD?
If they form a common General staff for the Confederation, made up of officers from Austria, Prussia and other states, is there then a GD?
If they create an Executive Council with power to declare war, subject to a right of veto by Prussia and/or Austria if no member state has actually been attacked, does that a GD make?
And if unity “creeps in” this way, at what point if any to other powers get worried enough to fight?
If fans of “Yes, Prime Minister" think they have heard something like this somewhere before – they are dead right!
If the Diet of the German Confederation makes a law that an invasion or blockade of the dominions of any Federal Prince shall be treated as an attack on all, and as a declaration of war against all members, is that a GD? If it created a like duty to assist one another to suppress insurrection, would that make it one?
If they pass another law, perhaps a year or two later, making all subjects of a Federal Prince liable to a term of military service, which by a curious coincidence is set at three years (the term Wilhelm I wants for the Prussian Army) is that a GD?
If a bit later still they decree that the soldiers of all member states shall wear a common uniform on active service, with the old uniforms being used only on ceremonial occasions, is that a GD?
If they enact another measure that the forces of member states shall use weapons of a standard calibre, etc, so that the weapons of all states are interchangeable and can be used by any other. Is that a GD?
If they form a common General staff for the Confederation, made up of officers from Austria, Prussia and other states, is there then a GD?
If they create an Executive Council with power to declare war, subject to a right of veto by Prussia and/or Austria if no member state has actually been attacked, does that a GD make?
And if unity “creeps in” this way, at what point if any to other powers get worried enough to fight?
If fans of “Yes, Prime Minister" think they have heard something like this somewhere before – they are dead right!
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