Feasibility of a "Volkssturm" AFV?

[LeX]

First off, excuse me for making a thread about potential Nazi weaponry; I know there's already a crapload of them.

For various reasons, I have to come up with a potential WW2-era tank design, and was thinking about what would be interesting. So I had this idea:
- To assist the Volkssturm, the Germans take their Pak 43 gun and put it on a tracked vehicle. The vehicle itself would be lightly armored (similar to the PzJg 1, with an open top) and have limited speed due to a cheap, underpowered engine, but be easy to operate by conscript crews, be more mobile (for purposes of tactical retreat, mostly) than just a towed gun, and quick to produce.

Now I need some feedback for this idea, and more specifically for the following:
- Is such a vehicle plausible, or does the very concept go against German doctrine/Hitler's ego, or was it already built? I don't want to spend time conceiving of an drawing this thing if someone already built it.
- What chassis should I use? I'm thinking a light tank's hull would be good, but which one?
- The Pak 43 was an AT gun, but it's predecessor was a dual-purpose AT/AA cannon of the Flak 88 variety. Would it be possible to have a modernized version of the Flak 88 that can still fulfill the role of AA? Wikipedia gave me something called a Pak 41, but it seems like it was too complicated, something that I wouldn't want to force our Volkssturm crews to deal with.

Please tell me what you think so that I can start drawing!

 

[BlairWitch749]

sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent (ill comment on your actual op later)

but on Volksgrenadier vehicles... they had a VW with six panzerfausts mounted on the roof and bicycles with a panzerfaust on either side

the 12th army used a few of them in the closing days of the war

now thats improvised

 

[LeX]

Speaking of Panzerfausts, maybe this "Volkssturmwagen" could serve as an infantry carrier, namely those conscripts who are sent into battle with a rocket launcher and nothing more. The tank destroyer would, upon reaching the destination, set up an ambush while the Panzerfaust-armed conscripts would get off and find their own hiding places.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Speaking of Panzerfausts, maybe this "Volkssturmwagen" could serve as an infantry carrier, namely those conscripts who are sent into battle with a rocket launcher and nothing more. The tank destroyer would, upon reaching the destination, set up an ambush while the Panzerfaust-armed conscripts would get off and find their own hiding places.

Excuse me for stating the obvious here, but wouldn't such a vehicle be used inmediately to mechanise the motorised infantry the mechanised divisions still had?

Considering the Germans still had armored divisions by 1944 using the Renault FT-17, TKS tankettes or similar captured obsolete gear, I think you're overestimating the amount of equipment the Germans had if you think the Volkssturm is going to get equipped with newly built armored vehicles, however low budget they may be.

 

[LeX]

Damn, you're probably right. Germany didn't have the resources for that kind of thing.

Any other ideas for an ATL design?

 

[Intosh]

- To assist the Volkssturm,

When the Germans mobilized the Volkssturm, they were so fucked off, that it was a miracle, they have rifles, often rifles from conquered countries and some Panzerfaust to give them.

These guys were sometimes 12 years old boys and there great fathers of 50's and more...

And they were not issued any kind of uniforms...

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Damn, you're probably right. Germany didn't have the resources for that kind of thing.

Any other ideas for an ATL design?

A Germany the spends more time immediately after end of WW1 on mechanized infantry vehicle research. Germany wasted a lot of time after the war not looking into armor and transports. Have an officer focus on a multi-purpose carrier/fighting vehicle early on and you may see something pop up during the war.

 

[Markus]

The Pak 43 was the 88mm AT gun, I guess you mean the 75mm Pak 40? As others said the Germans put this gun and captured filed guns in the 75mm range on any tracked chassis they could get their hands on.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

A Germany the spends more time immediately after end of WW1 on mechanized infantry vehicle research. Germany wasted a lot of time after the war not looking into armor and transports. Have an officer focus on a multi-purpose carrier/fighting vehicle early on and you may see something pop up during the war.

Although that would have helped, the bottom reason why the Germans didn't succeed in mechanising/motorising further is because they had to build up a big army to take on the rest of the world from scratch in a few years time with only a small part of the world's industrial resources.

Even during peacetime during the '30s the German army was actually wearing out trucks faster then they could be replaced by production.

If industrial production is at such a premium, you're not in the position to build large amounts of IFV's anyways, whatever research has been done.

The mechanised (halftrack) carriers the Germans did build, the Sd.kfz series, were awesomely good and ridiculously overengineered and much too expensive, which would probably happen too with an IFV they design.
It's irrelevant anyhow, as whatever true IFV the Germans design, unless they somehow remedy their industrial problem, is not going to built in large enough numbers.

 

[LeX]

I don't care about whether or not the vehicle would've made Germany do better or worse. I just want an idea for an AFV (any kind) that I can elaborate on through a design summary and some drawings. And it should be something that German designers could have actually come up with.

Did the Germans try rocket tanks as a form of Panzerjäger?

 

[FlyingDutchman]

A Germany the spends more time immediately after end of WW1 on mechanized infantry vehicle research. Germany wasted a lot of time after the war not looking into armor and transports. Have an officer focus on a multi-purpose carrier/fighting vehicle early on and you may see something pop up during the war.

I don't care about whether or not the vehicle would've made Germany do better or worse. I just want an idea for an AFV (any kind) that I can elaborate on through a design summary and some drawings. And it should be something that German designers could have actually come up with.

Did the Germans try rocket tanks as a form of Panzerjäger?

Although you probably mean something like the Ontos, but then with rocket launched AT projectiles, instead of recoilless rifles, the germans did build and use this mechanised/armoured artillery rocketlauncher:

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/german/swwerfer/swwerfer.htm

 

[LeX]

Hm. The problem seems to be that any sensible (and some not-very-sensible) tank concept of WW2 has already been tried.
Ah, someone earlier mentioned that the Germans were trying to mechanize their infantry as much as possible. IIRC, the modern idea of an IFV had not yet been invented. Perhaps the Germans could've developed a WW2 version of the Merkava?
Elaboration: Before Stalingrad, Hitler was convinced that the enemy had been crushed at the strategic level, and that most of the future fighting would consist of static, close-quarters mop-up operations. To support such efforts, a unique Panzer was created, one suited for assisting infantry in clearing out the ruins of Soviet cities. It was designed for durability, power, and limited infantry transport.

 

[Douglas]

How about a French internet design? Perhaps from a TL where instead of a successful Ardennes offensive, a frontal German offensive through Belgium grinds to a halt around the Somme at the end of 1940. Say the French took a bunch of losses, and they want a cheap, tank light destroyer. Stick the 47mm APX AT gun on a cheap tracked chassis, perhaps that of the old Renault tanks. Would that fit your requirement of an alt- yet interesting design?

 

[TofuTanker]

Perhaps it could be armed with an MK103 auto cannon in a rotating turret.

 

[AMF]

Hello LeoXiao,
the vehicle that comes closest to the one described was, as far as I know the Krupp - Steyr Waffenträger (Waffenträger simply translates as "weapons carrier"). It did have an 8.8cm anti tank gun (I think it was the Pak 43) in a lightly armoured turreted superstructure. I think one prototype was built. I think there also was a similar vehicle from Rheinmetall.

 

[AMF]

Hello LeoXiao,
this is a comparable vehicle that is also armed with the same gun, but without a fully enclosed or rotating turret, the Ardelt Waffenträger. If you want more information, Walter J. Spielberger and Hilary L. Doyle's Special Panzer Variants would be helpful for you.
The Waffenträger were originally based on the idea of having a tracked chassis on which several types of heavy weapons could be quickly mounted or dismounted.

 

[AMF]

A Krupp - Ardelt Waffenträger carrying an leFh 18 10,5cm field howitzer

 

[AMF]

Did the Germans try rocket tanks as a form of Panzerjäger?

They did, but only as measures of desperation (but I think a "Volkssturm AFV" is by definition a measure of desperation). They used at least two types of vehicle.


One was called "Wanze" (=bug). It was based on a vehicle called Sdkfz 301 or Borgward IV.

This vehicle had originally been developed as an ammunition carrier, and was later used as a remotely controlled mine clearing vehicle. It proved to be unsatisfactory in both roles, and was then further developed into a remotely controlled demolition vehicle. It was the largest of three vehicles of this type used by Germany (all built by Borgward) and the only one that dropped the explosive charge near the target, instead of blowing the vehicle up together with the charge. It had a seat for a driver, driving the vehicle under light armour to a point where he could dismount and the remote control could take over.

The "Panzerjäger" variant was armed with six Raketenpanzerbüchsen 54 bazookas, better known as Panzerschreck.
See here: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/wanze-borgward-b-iv-ausfuhrung-mit-raketenpanzerbuchse-54.htm

There was at least one other type of vehicle used in the same role, namely captured British Universal Carriers, also known as Bren carriers. They were armed with three Panzerschrecks and called Panzerjäger 731(e), the "e" standing for "englisch". See picture:

 

[LeX]

Ah, thank you. I don't think I'll be doing anything regarding tank destroyers anymore, but the infos were interesting nonetheless.