Feasibility Check: RCAF upgrades existing fighters in the late 1970's

Ok just an idea I had floating around in my head... wanted to bounce it off all of y'all to see what you think.

Now as the 1960's drew to a close the RCAF was left with a pair of less than ideal aircraft the CF-101 Voodoo, and the CF-104 Starfighter. Later they would be joined by the CF-116 a licence produced version of the F-5 Freedom Fighter. The acquisition of the CF-5/CF-116 is generally considered to be one of the more boneheaded moves committed by the Canadian military as it never really had a clearly defined role.

Anyways here's my thought, what about instead of purchasing the CF-5, the Canadian government has the RCAF's existing planes upgraded in order to prolong their service lives? I was initially thinking about only upgrading the CF-101 Voodoo but the CF-104 could be upgraded as well... Here are my thoughts

CF-101 Voodoo Rebuild/Upgrade
-Operation "Peace Wings" occurs earlier than OTL, the 66 "new" Voodoo's receive the following upgrades...
-New Avionics package capable of firing Sparrow/Sidewinder Missiles.
-Modern Electronics
-Better Engines (Canadian Made Orendas?)
-Canadian firms gain a licence to manufacture new parts for the CF-101 Voodoo

CF-104 Starfighter Rebuild/Upgrade
-Control Surfaces redesigned (New Tail configuration, larger wings)
-Lengthened fuselage for more fuel and longer range.
-Improved Canadian built engine?
-Improved Avionics allowing planes to fire Sparrow missiles in addition to Sidewinders
-See Below...
x-27_4.jpg

Putting aside costs and the flagrant anti-military attitude of OTL's government. Would such modifications be even allowed by OTL's licencing agreements? If not, could said agreements be amended to allow such modifications?

Let's take for example TTL's modified CF-104 Starfighter, basically it's a CL-1200 Lancer designed a few early. I think it'd be quite popular as it would allow the plethora of countries using the F-104 an opportunity to rapidly improve their existing fleet's combat effectiveness and longevity. There would even be an option for basic, intermediate, and deluxe upgrades

Basic:
-Lengthened fuselage
-Larger wings
-Different tail assembly

Intermediate
-Basic + Improved Avionics

Deluxe
-Intermediate + Canadian Engine

Who would gain the revenues from the sales of such a product? Perhaps Lockheed can strike a deal with Canada in which they agree to help redesign/rebuild the CF-104 Starfighters as a way to get around the USA not choosing to invest in the CL-1200 Lancer? Also revenues get split between Canadair/Lockheed.

Thoughts?
 
Fearless, you can't have an Orenda engine without an Avro aircraft. Both were cancelled and scrapped.

Your Lancer would be better with the swept vertical fin and the anhedral tailplane, but the wing configuration suffers from interference drag at the wing underside/fuselage junction which denies viability unless some kind of conformal fillet is provided to modify the contours.

In the genesis of the N-156 (F-5), there was a J-79 powered Northrop aircraft with crude delta configuration in mock-up. The advent of the J-85 engine cause Lee Begin to re-think the aerodynamics of the new light-weight fighter and created a new criteria for others to follow/borrow/steal. I did a design study and combined the J-79 aircraft with the F-5 principles and created what I thought was pretty effective. Unfortunately, it crashed when my computer did, just a smoking hole.

I played with the Starfighter design for a short while and couldn't come up with an easy derivative, but I don't feel so bad because nobody bought any of Kelly Johnson's derivatives either.

I believe your Lancer features 2 M-61 guns. I think you should delete one.

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Hmm... Nope.

F-101 was a very old design (1951) in a time when technology advanced in bursts (kinda like tanks in the '40s). By 1970, the airframe was obsolete, its upgrade reserve (not a lot of it, in the first place) exhausted.

As for the F-104, it was a pile of shit, built and sold by a bunch of fucknuggets. The less said of it the better.
 
Upgrades

The F101 was a very compromissed design, and any money spent on upgrading it would be better spent buying second hand Phamtoms...
The F104 was only good for one thing, low flying high speed missions, be it tactical strike (for wich it's limited payload meant it was better suited for Nukes than anything else) recce or maritime strike. An F104G with Karmoran missiles made for a very capable antiship aircraft. There is a much cheaper way to upgrade the F104, wich is to base it on the Italian F104S. rebuilding it to become a CL1200 clone would cost as much as a new aircraft.
If you're going to upgrade a canadian fighter, why not the CF5. It was built from 1966, so it would be upgrade ready in the "late 70s" There are lots of extensively upgraded F5A and CF5 flying around, and the little thing was a radar away from being a useful little all around fighter... Give it the F5E radar, and you've got a low cost useful little machine....
 
Everybody who tried to use the F-104 as a fast-low striker discovered after about 30% total hull losses (and a good deal of dead pilots) that the flight envelope was really unsuitable for that.

The main problem with the (C)F-5 is/was that it's a pretty crappy combat plane. It's basically a glorified advanced trainer, sold as a light fighter, shitty payload, crap range and all.
 
The F101 was a very compromissed design, and any money spent on upgrading it would be better spent buying second hand Phamtoms...
The F104 was only good for one thing, low flying high speed missions, be it tactical strike (for wich it's limited payload meant it was better suited for Nukes than anything else) recce or maritime strike. An F104G with Karmoran missiles made for a very capable antiship aircraft. There is a much cheaper way to upgrade the F104, wich is to base it on the Italian F104S. rebuilding it to become a CL1200 clone would cost as much as a new aircraft.
If you're going to upgrade a canadian fighter, why not the CF5. It was built from 1966, so it would be upgrade ready in the "late 70s" There are lots of extensively upgraded F5A and CF5 flying around, and the little thing was a radar away from being a useful little all around fighter... Give it the F5E radar, and you've got a low cost useful little machine....

The Canadian CF-5 is based on the F-5a which didn't recieve significant up-grades. The F-5E/F series was a significantly different airframe and recieved many up-grades. Canada would have to possess the later machines, still without a viable role, to rate an up-grade. True, Canada's military procurement criteria have never been based on logic.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
The Canadian CF-5 is based on the F-5a which didn't recieve significant up-grades. The F-5E/F series was a significantly different airframe and recieved many up-grades. Canada would have to possess the later machines, still without a viable role, to rate an up-grade. True, Canada's military procurement criteria have never been based on logic.

Then again, Pierre Trudeau was probably the worst Prime Minister for the Canadian Forces, by far...
 
Then again, Pierre Trudeau was probably the worst Prime Minister for the Canadian Forces, by far...

This statement, with 3 words deleted from the end, is unassailably the truth. However, I prefer to start with Dief, and I am still waiting for competence. I had a brief glimmer of hope when Barney Danson was defence minister, but that was fleeting. I'm over it now.
 
Later they would be joined by the CF-116 a licence produced version of the F-5 Freedom Fighter. The acquisition of the CF-5/CF-116 is generally considered to be one of the more boneheaded moves committed by the Canadian military as it never really had a clearly defined role.

The lightweight fighter competition that led to the CF-116 had 12 different aircraft competing for the contract ranging from the G-91 to the F-111. The air force concluded that the best fit was the F-4 Phantom and recommended it. The government then chose the F-5 based solely on price.

The possibility that they would invest the money in upgrades to the existing aircraft is nil. If they were going to spend the kind of money required for the R&D and the upgrades then they would have bought the Phantoms in the first place.
 
The London Ontario airshow of 1988 featured 27 different F-4s in various markings, including a special one for the show, the #5000, and one with 2 red stars on the splitter plate. It was much more exciting than the F-16 show, where the only example not in low-viz gray was the Marine aggressor model in camo.

66-7765.jpg
 
Ok just an idea I had floating around in my head... wanted to bounce it off all of y'all to see what you think.

Now as the 1960's drew to a close the RCAF was left with a pair of less than ideal aircraft the CF-101 Voodoo, and the CF-104 Starfighter. Later they would be joined by the CF-116 a licence produced version of the F-5 Freedom Fighter. The acquisition of the CF-5/CF-116 is generally considered to be one of the more boneheaded moves committed by the Canadian military as it never really had a clearly defined role.

Anyways here's my thought, what about instead of purchasing the CF-5, the Canadian government has the RCAF's existing planes upgraded in order to prolong their service lives? I was initially thinking about only upgrading the CF-101 Voodoo but the CF-104 could be upgraded as well... Here are my thoughts

CF-101 Voodoo Rebuild/Upgrade
-Operation "Peace Wings" occurs earlier than OTL, the 66 "new" Voodoo's receive the following upgrades...
-New Avionics package capable of firing Sparrow/Sidewinder Missiles.
-Modern Electronics
-Better Engines (Canadian Made Orendas?)
-Canadian firms gain a licence to manufacture new parts for the CF-101 Voodoo

CF-104 Starfighter Rebuild/Upgrade
-Control Surfaces redesigned (New Tail configuration, larger wings)
-Lengthened fuselage for more fuel and longer range.
-Improved Canadian built engine?
-Improved Avionics allowing planes to fire Sparrow missiles in addition to Sidewinders
-See Below...
x-27_4.jpg

Putting aside costs and the flagrant anti-military attitude of OTL's government. Would such modifications be even allowed by OTL's licencing agreements? If not, could said agreements be amended to allow such modifications?

Let's take for example TTL's modified CF-104 Starfighter, basically it's a CL-1200 Lancer designed a few early. I think it'd be quite popular as it would allow the plethora of countries using the F-104 an opportunity to rapidly improve their existing fleet's combat effectiveness and longevity. There would even be an option for basic, intermediate, and deluxe upgrades

Basic:
-Lengthened fuselage
-Larger wings
-Different tail assembly

Intermediate
-Basic + Improved Avionics

Deluxe
-Intermediate + Canadian Engine

Who would gain the revenues from the sales of such a product? Perhaps Lockheed can strike a deal with Canada in which they agree to help redesign/rebuild the CF-104 Starfighters as a way to get around the USA not choosing to invest in the CL-1200 Lancer? Also revenues get split between Canadair/Lockheed.

Thoughts?

A few thoughts..

The CF101's were probably not worth upgrading (other posters have expanded upon this..)

When the CF104's lost their nuclear mission in the early 70's (IIRC) then there might have been some interest in modest upgrades that made them more suitable for conventional missions and a giving them a better air to air capability would have been nice. (IIRC the radars on the CF104's did not have an air to air capability.) Canada probably could have partnered with the Germans and the Italians and got a bit more mileage out of the CF104's. I also wonder if the Canadians could have modified some CF104's into an interceptor variant (similar to what the Italians did with the F104S) and dropped the CF101 entirely in the mid 70's.

To summarize plausible upgrades for the CF104's might have been:

A more powerful engine (IIRC German F104's eventually received them.)
ECM / EW systems (IIRC Canadian CF104's eventually got some of them.)
An upgraded radar with air to air modes
Maybe AIM 7 missiles for an interceptor version
Maybe support for PGM's for the strike versions.

I can't see any fundamental air frame changes being made.

Working a deal with the US to trade the CF101's in for F4's would also have been worth pursuing IMHO.

With the benefit of hindsight I'm also not convinced the CF5 purchase was such a terrible deal for the Canadians (the air craft did serve in the figher lead in role for a period of time, flew at least one photo recon mission during the Oka crisis, were deployed to Norway and other locations on occasion etc..) Had the cold war gone hot I suspect the Canadians would have put their 140 or so CF5's to good use. The CF5 was also eventually upgraded in the 90's but the plane was taken out of service shortly afterwards and some of the upgraded CF5's were eventually sold overseas.
 
Fearless, you can't have an Orenda engine without an Avro aircraft. Both were cancelled and scrapped.

Orenda survived the end of the Arrow because of its rebuild business, and they to this day are making new engine designs, though they are in recent times making more improvements to other designs. Orenda very nearly became the builder of the RR Trent for the Lockheed Tristar, because Rolls Royce wet bankrupt. It is possible.

As for the planes itself, considering the cost of it, I'm with the other posters here. The better option would have been just canning the both of them in favor of Phantoms. If we're going with Joe Clark's original defense plan (which was a bit off if you ask me - armed merchant ships? Why?), then you could use the CF-104 for a maritime strike role, but you'd be best in that case getting all of the goodies of the Italian F-104S and fitting it to fire air-launched Harpoons. That would be a capable aircraft for the role, though perhaps a little redundant. The CF-101 is obsolete by the end of the 1970s, as were the handful of CF-100s still in service at that point. if you have the money for this, get the F-4s in the late 60s as they were rolling off the line in big numbers and use them to replace the Voodoos. Can the CF-5 entirely. Use the Hornet as OTL for the lightweight fighter contest, and if Clark is looking for shore-based attack aircraft, have Canada get in on the Panavia Tornado project and have a fleet of them supplied to the CF in the early 80s. By the mid-1980s the old birds have all been retired, and the CF's aircraft trio is the Phantom for interceptor duties, CF-18 for fighter jobs and Tornado for strike duties, all what the aircraft in question were designed for in the first place. The Canuck F-4s could get a good overhaul at this time, perhaps using the staff from Boeing's F-4X project such as the larger fuel tanks (always good for something as fuel-thirsty as a turbojet-powered fighter is) and perhaps even fitting the F-4s for the same engines as the Tornado or CF-18, improving the airplanes and simplifying logistics. Canada's aerospace industry is easily up to all of this.
 
Can you name all the new Orenda engines produced since 1959? Can you name any? Yes, there was a v-8, but it failed.
 
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