FDR without polio.

If Franklin Delano Roosvelt never had the poliomyelitis,which changes would have had his Presidency?
I think that FDR would have been ever FDR,and that a wheelchair would not make greater difference in his politics,
but for other aspects?
Less fireplace speeches and more travels?
 

jahenders

Banned
Very hard to say. Having it certainly affected his temperment and choices.

A few possibilities:
1) He likely wouldn't have taken a couple years off from politics (as he did after being diagnosed with polio). He might have risen slightly sooner, though butterflies might change things in another way.

2) Without polio, and with more mobility, he might well have been more of a ladies' man and had more affairs than he did. It's possible this might have led to scandal or to an even greater rift with Eleanor (they having a HUGE rift IOTL). Some have speculated that Eleanor's frustration with FDR's affairs is another reason why Hillary identified so much with Eleanor.

3) He might have spent more time travelling, especially during the war. This could be productive, but would also take time.

If Franklin Delano Roosvelt never had the poliomyelitis,which changes would have had his Presidency?
I think that FDR would have been ever FDR,and that a wheelchair would not make greater difference in his politics,
but for other aspects?
Less fireplace speeches and more travels?
 
If Franklin Delano Roosvelt never had the poliomyelitis,which changes would have had his Presidency?
I think that FDR would have been ever FDR,and that a wheelchair would not make greater difference in his politics,
but for other aspects?
Less fireplace speeches and more travels?

THIS, pretty much. How much more quickly FDR's career would advance in the Republican Era that was the Roaring 20s IDK. But certainly aa greater ability to perform as POTUS himself, less need to delegate. Maybe he would have had the confidence to pension off his more elderly cabinet officers, like Knox, Stimson, and especially Hull.
 

Driftless

Donor
That change could easily spin off in several directions.

  • FDR was a high-energy, driven, and intelligent member of one of the most famous and well-connected political clans in US history, so with no polio, probably enhances his political pursuits
  • Historically, he went to great pains (literally and metaphorically) to limit the public view of his paralysis. I can't help believe the physical stress contributed to the deterioration of his health. Perhaps he not only lives through the end of the war, but is also more vitalized the last couple of years. What does that mean for the post-war?
  • In large part because of the travel difficulties and that desire to avoid being seen in public in the wheel chair, Eleanor made many visits across the world to do the face-to-face meeting with normal citizens, soldiers, and sailors. She became the moral conscience of the President. If FDR is physically able to do more of those trips, does he go? If so, how does that impact social programs? Or, does Eleanor go on those visits anyway?
  • Does FDR make a presidential trip to Britain? He stopped at various British island in the Caribbean and of course the Atlantic Charter summit done aboard the warships off Newfoundland. He also entertained both the King and Churchill on several occasions in the US, but never a formal and very public visit to the UK.
 
Last edited:
Very hard to say. Having it certainly affected his tempermentnt and choices.

Without polio, and with more mobility, he might well have been more of a ladies' man and had more affairs than he did. It's possible this might have led to scandal or to an even greater rift with Eleanor (they having a HUGE rift IOTL). Some have speculated that Eleanor's frustration with FDR's affairs is another reason why Hillary identified so much with Eleanor.

Go to Hyde Park yourself and you can easily see that Franklin and Eleanor's marriage was destroyed by more than anything else the malevolent influence of Mrs. Sara Ann Delano-Roosevelt, Franklin's mother, and Eleanor's mother-in-law from Hell. The woman never accepted her son's marrying Eleanor, and did all she could to destroy it. In fact if not in name.

Check out the sleeping arrangements for all three persons in that house. Such a twin-bedroom setting would be outlawed if you showed it in a porn! Very disturbing floor plan, to say the least. AIUI, "Mrs. Delano" pulled off something very similar in other circumstances where the three lived together (when the Roosevelts were first married, IIRC). Extremely domineering personality, the kind that no one could ever say "no" to though Eleanor tried to harder than anyone else.

By the time that FDR's mother finally died, her son's marriage to Eleanor was stone cold dead. Mission accomplished. And even with physical mobility, there's no indication that Franklin would ever have had the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the Ultimate Momism incarnated in what was probably US History's worst First Mother.:mad:

Whatever FDR gets from not having polio, a happy marriage and freedom from his mother aren't included.:(
 
I've always wonder how much of FDR's empathy and determination came from his experience recovering from his polio...would he be the same man? I don't know.

Looking at New York elections between 1920 and 1932, the only opening for FDR, assuming he wasn't just waiting for Smith to step down in 1928, was the Senatorial race in 1926. I imagine this would be an easier race than Governor was in 1928. In the Senate, he'd have a bit more connections for if/when he rises to the Presidency, but now he's an insider in time for an election that's desperately looking for an outside source. Theoretically he'd have an easier time securing the nomination, perhaps being able to keep Garner off the bottom of the ticket, but maybe not do as well in the general election.

As for a Presidency...assuming he has the same temperament as OTL, he's probably more effective in that he can travel on foot. The international summits are easier to pull off. He might be more involved in handpicking a successor in 1944 and theoretically resigns the Presidency to be the first UN Ambassador. Then he lives at least another decade and would have tremendous behind the scenes influence. I don't know if the chaos that erupted at the 48 or 52 conventions/elections would be allowed to happen if FDR is around.
 
That change could easily spin off in several directions.


[*]FDR was a high-energy, driven, and intelligent member of one of the most famous and well-connected political clans in US history, so with no polio, probably enhances his political pursuits (1)

1)
Its just difficult to tell what happens. An earlier entry into US presidential politics could thrust him into the Dem nomination for 1928, which was an unwinnable one, even for FDR. Though he might have been wise enough to wait until the time was ripe. Unfortunately, in the American republican system, no matter how much one party turns things to poo as of Election Day D+1 1928, the Dems don't have a chance to swear in their own guy as POTUS until 50 months later in 1933:(

No Votes of No Confidence over here. Though don't bother trying to tell the Vast Right Conspiracy [size=-2]tm[/size] and the Tea Party.

[*]Historically, he went to great pains (literally and metaphorically) to limit the public view of his paralysis. I can't help believe the physical stress contributed to the deterioration of his health. (2)

2)
Things got so bad for him at the end that he was forced to apologize to a joint session of Congress (and nationally via radio and newsreel) that the ten pounds of steel he was forced to carry didn't allow him to stand anymore.

Perhaps he not only lives through the end of the war, but is also more vitalized the last couple of years. (3)

3) He smoked like a chimney, drank not heavily but a lot, and worked as POTUS in the most exhausting era ever for a president short of the ACW. Plus he did it 4 years and 87 days longer than any other POTUS. He also lacked any sense of his own mortality. He spoke of running for UN Secretary General after he left office in 1948. He may be in better shape, but not a whole lot better shape.

AISI, his biggest problem was his rose-colored glasses POV regarding the Soviets. I don't think that's going to change just because his physical strength is far better. Maybe it makes for a better Yalta and Potsdam, but IDK. After Yalta, Potsdam really needed someone like Harry S. Truman to tell Josef Stalin to "Go to Hell". ITTL, Potsdam could well turn into Yalta 2.0:(

What does that mean for the post-war? (4)

4) Harder to deal with the Soviets, more mischief making by Stalin. At least Truman, as the newbie, was willing to listen. FDR's style was far more "vertical".

[*]In large part because of the travel difficulties and that desire to avoid being seen in public in the wheel chair, Eleanor made many visits across the world to do the face-to-face meeting with normal citizens, soldiers, and sailors. (5)

5)
Eleanor had the stamina of an African bull elephant in full charge. She was making all those visits because she wanted to, and because she had nothing to look forward to at home (regardless of FDR's handicap). FDR used her because she was enormously popular outside of White Dixiecrats, because she could make promises that FDR may or may not have intended to fulfill, and to take advantage of her own considerable political skills.

She became the moral conscience of the President. (6)

6)
FDR needed that too. He was seen even by his friends as "too much the politician". Eleanor gave his administration of earnestness that otherwise it would have lacked.

If FDR is physically able to do more of those trips, does he go? (7)

7)
Hard to say. The USA was transitioning from a time where some people had radios to everyone having one. So the need to do whistle-stop tours were not as necessary. But I'd say, yes, he would. Truman did in 1948, when Dewey did not, and it killed Dewey.

If so, how does that impact social programs? (8)

8)
:confused: The enemies of those social programs were a prostrate Republiucan Party, and the out-of-control Charles Evans Hughes Supreme Court, which just the threat of passing FDR's Court Packing Bill was enough to break them.

Or, does Eleanor go on those visits anyway? (9)

9) Yes, she secured the African-American Vote through to the present day (kudos to the Earl Warren SCOTUS, JFK, and LBJ too).

[*]Does FDR make a presidential trip to Britain? (10)

10) No:( Not unless he's healthy and its post-VJ Day.

He stopped at various British island in the Caribbean and of course the Atlantic Charter summit done aboard the warships off Newfoundland. (11)

11)
Sailing about the high seas thousands of miles out of range from the Luftwaffe, aboard battleships, and surrounded by flotillas of escorts, is not the same thing as trying to penetrate U-Boat wolf packs, facing Luftwaffe air raids, V-1 buzz bombs, and impossible to defend against V-2 rockets. To be blunt, had Churchill been lost to an unexploded bomb while touring London during the Blitz, he could have been constitutionally replaced within days by a Parliament that could have quickly chosen the BEST possible candidate for a wartime Prime Minister leading a National Government. Bevin, frex.

But let a V-2 land on FDR's head, and you have Henry A. Wallace as POTUS. A guy whose glasses facing the Soviets were not rose-tinted, but almost cherry red! It would be many years before the scales were removed from Wallace's eyes. 1942-1944 were not those years.

The US President has far more power and responsibility in his office than does a British Prime Minister. He leaves a helluva void when tragedy strikes. Big advantage to the parliamentary system is that when its time for the PM to go, there's generally a good choice of candidates to choose from for a replacement.

He also entertained both the King and Churchill on several occasions in the US, but never a formal and very public visit to the UK. (12)

12)
Not the same thing.

As an example, when Churchill sailed to the USA he reached a land (CONUS) that was free of any threat of attack. He was greeted almost as a national hero (half-American, you know), a standing ovation as he became the first foreign leader to address a joint session of Congress, and more to the point, FDR invited Churchill to perform the annual lighting of the White House Christmas Tree. Meaning, it was so safe that blackout conditions weren't needed. Things were THAT safe. Until the U-Boats showed up.:mad:
 
I've always wonder how much of FDR's empathy and determination came from his experience recovering from his polio...would he be the same man? I don't know.

noblesse oblige

Looking at New York elections between 1920 and 1932, the only opening for FDR, assuming he wasn't just waiting for Smith to step down in 1928, was the Senatorial race in 1926. I imagine this would be an easier race than Governor was in 1928. In the Senate, he'd have a bit more connections for if/when he rises to the Presidency, but now he's an insider in time for an election that's desperately looking for an outside source.

He needs the governorship for the executive experience and the reputation that comes with it. And with the Dems in a hopeless congressional minority in the 1920s, its not like FDR has much to worry about with being "tagged" as an insider. The election wasn;t looking for outsiders, it was looking for "Not Republicans".

Theoretically he'd have an easier time securing the nomination, perhaps being able to keep Garner off the bottom of the ticket, but maybe not do as well in the general election.

Beyond the EC votes they bring, nobody gave much thought to VP nominees back then. Its not like FDR ever listened to ANY of his VPs. And its hard to imagine the 1932 election being worse for the Dems than OTL.

1930-1932-1934-1936. Four consecutive Democratic landslides. You had more than a few senior Republican congressional leaders in the 30s leaving politics for good because they figured they'd never see another time in their political careers where they could count on controlling the majority. They were right.

As for a Presidency...assuming he has the same temperament as OTL, he's probably more effective in that he can travel on foot. The international summits are easier to pull off. He might be more involved in handpicking a successor in 1944

FDR is running in 1944. Being healthier makes this even more emphatically so. Though whether this handwaves Truman IDK. But consider: In the 1940s the VP was NOT considered to be a stepping stone to the White House. In fact, it was Truman himself who broke the mold regarding this fact.

and theoretically resigns the Presidency to be the first UN Ambassador.

FDR takes a job where he has to answer to someone else? Or did you mean UN Secretary General? Besides, the USA doesn't have presidents resign to go to other jobs. Any other job is after all a demotion. Eleanor OTOH...

Then he lives at least another decade and would have tremendous behind the scenes influence. I don't know if the chaos that erupted at the 48 or 52 conventions/elections would be allowed to happen if FDR is around.

Post-WWII saw the explosion of a lot of racial tensions within the Democratic Party, and things like the opening of the death camps at least temporarily threw racists back on their heels. At least when speaking publicly. I think that the poison coming out of the Dixiecrats was just too toxic for even FDR to deal with.

After all, an ex-PM can always threaten to re-enter politics as a candidate for the top job. Not so here. Making for the name "lame duck" and all that that implies. FDR would be plowing the seas trying to fix the problems of American racism. McCarthyism OTOH...:mad: Betcha FDR throws all he has to support the Tydings hearings to crush McCarthy early enough to prevent his re-election. Or better yet, if FDR campaigns in Wisconsin in 1946 against McCarthy and for the Democratic candidate...:cool:
 
Very hard to say. Having it certainly affected
2) Without polio, and with more mobility, he might well have been more of a ladies' man and had more affairs than he did. It's possible this might have led to scandal

In 30s?
Was a different perception of these affairs back then.
Obviously a divorce is a different thing,but i don't think that to Eleanor cared something of if his husband have extramarital affairs,and FDR for sure would not compromise his career with a divorce.
 

jahenders

Banned
While his mom was a problem from the start, FDR's affairs were deadly as well. He had multiple affairs, including a long-term one with Eleanor's secretary (Lucy Mercer). Eleanor discovered this one and forced FDR to promise he'd never see her again, but he never broke off contact and she never forgave him FDR contemplated divorcing Eleanor and marrying Lucy, but Lucy refused to marry a divorcee and his mom said that divorce would bring shame on the family and she'd cut him off financially. After that, their marriage was a loveless, political arrangement and the two often lived apart, even when his health was declining rapidly.

Not sure whether it was before or after the affairs, but according to Winkler (2006), Eleanor described sex as, "an ordeal to be endured." So, if he had more physical ability with no polio, he might have been more inclined to have more affairs.

Go to Hyde Park yourself and you can easily see that Franklin and Eleanor's marriage was destroyed by more than anything else the malevolent influence of Mrs. Sara Ann Delano-Roosevelt, Franklin's mother, and Eleanor's mother-in-law from Hell. The woman never accepted her son's marrying Eleanor, and did all she could to destroy it. In fact if not in name.

Check out the sleeping arrangements for all three persons in that house. Such a twin-bedroom setting would be outlawed if you showed it in a porn! Very disturbing floor plan, to say the least. AIUI, "Mrs. Delano" pulled off something very similar in other circumstances where the three lived together (when the Roosevelts were first married, IIRC). Extremely domineering personality, the kind that no one could ever say "no" to though Eleanor tried to harder than anyone else.

By the time that FDR's mother finally died, her son's marriage to Eleanor was stone cold dead. Mission accomplished. And even with physical mobility, there's no indication that Franklin would ever have had the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the Ultimate Momism incarnated in what was probably US History's worst First Mother.:mad:

Whatever FDR gets from not having polio, a happy marriage and freedom from his mother aren't included.:(
 
Fore what it is worth

Without the polio and recovery, FDR would be more of a womanizing ambitious jerk than Bubba.
He might make it to the WH but way too early, and just in time to catch the blame for the Depression.
With the polio, he almost became a human being.
 
Without the polio and recovery, FDR would be more of a womanizing ambitious jerk than Bubba.
He might make it to the WH but way too early, and just in time to catch the blame for the Depression.
With the polio, he almost became a human being.

I agree. His polio made him empathetic, despite the fact that he was a really obvious rich guy. He wore a freaking cape. But, even though most Americans had no idea that he was permanently crippled, they knew that he had spent two years trying to move his big toe. It's the 1930s version of "I feel your pain."
 

Driftless

Donor
Perhaps he not only lives through the end of the war, but is also more vitalized the last couple of years. (3)

Quote: What does that mean for the post-war? (4)


3) He smoked like a chimney, drank not heavily but a lot, and worked as POTUS in the most exhausting era ever for a president short of the ACW. Plus he did it 4 years and 87 days longer than any other POTUS. He also lacked any sense of his own mortality. He spoke of running for UN Secretary General after he left office in 1948. He may be in better shape, but not a whole lot better shape.

AISI, his biggest problem was his rose-colored glasses POV regarding the Soviets. I don't think that's going to change just because his physical strength is far better. Maybe it makes for a better Yalta and Potsdam, but IDK. After Yalta, Potsdam really needed someone like Harry S. Truman to tell Josef Stalin to "Go to Hell". ITTL, Potsdam could well turn into Yalta 2.0:(
4) Harder to deal with the Soviets, more mischief making by Stalin. At least Truman, as the newbie, was willing to listen. FDR's style was far more "vertical".

I basically agree, though Harry needed some more prep work though - to be better able to deal with Stalin.





[*]In large part because of the travel difficulties and that desire to avoid being seen in public in the wheel chair, Eleanor made many visits across the world to do the face-to-face meeting with normal citizens, soldiers, and sailors. (5)
5)
Eleanor had the stamina of an African bull elephant in full charge. She was making all those visits because she wanted to, and because she had nothing to look forward to at home (regardless of FDR's handicap). FDR used her because she was enormously popular outside of White Dixiecrats, because she could make promises that FDR may or may not have intended to fulfill, and to take advantage of her own considerable political skills.


She became the moral conscience of the President. (6)

6)
FDR needed that too. He was seen even by his friends as "too much the politician". Eleanor gave his administration of earnestness that otherwise it would have lacked.

9) Yes, she secured the African-American Vote through to the present day (kudos to the Earl Warren SCOTUS, JFK, and LBJ too).

Yup, she was a political force all on her own, plus it allowed some political distance and cover for FDR too - either by embracing her actions, or putting some distance between them.


[*]Does FDR make a presidential trip to Britain? (10)

11)
Sailing about the high seas thousands of miles out of range from the Luftwaffe, aboard battleships, and surrounded by flotillas of escorts, is not the same thing as trying to penetrate U-Boat wolf packs, facing Luftwaffe air raids, V-1 buzz bombs, and impossible to defend against V-2 rockets. To be blunt, had Churchill been lost to an unexploded bomb while touring London during the Blitz, he could have been constitutionally replaced within days by a Parliament that could have quickly chosen the BEST possible candidate for a wartime Prime Minister leading a National Government. Bevin, frex.

But let a V-2 land on FDR's head, and you have Henry A. Wallace as POTUS. A guy whose glasses facing the Soviets were not rose-tinted, but almost cherry red! It would be many years before the scales were removed from Wallace's eyes. 1942-1944 were not those years.

The US President has far more power and responsibility in his office than does a British Prime Minister. He leaves a helluva void when tragedy strikes. Big advantage to the parliamentary system is that when its time for the PM to go, there's generally a good choice of candidates to choose from for a replacement.

He also entertained both the King and Churchill on several occasions in the US, but never a formal and very public visit to the UK. (12)

12)
Not the same thing.

As an example, when Churchill sailed to the USA he reached a land (CONUS) that was free of any threat of attack. He was greeted almost as a national hero (half-American, you know), a standing ovation as he became the first foreign leader to address a joint session of Congress, and more to the point, FDR invited Churchill to perform the annual lighting of the White House Christmas Tree. Meaning, it was so safe that blackout conditions weren't needed. Things were THAT safe. Until the U-Boats showed up.:mad:

What you say is true and I'm sure that was a critical part of the calculations.

I still think the fact that a trip to Britain couldn't be as easily stage managed as the public views of the foreign conferences were. With Churchill's appearance before the US Congress, if FDR goes to Britain, wouldn't there be an expectation of a similar public visit to the House of Commons, or the appearance on the balcony of Buckingham Palace? For comparison, the walk to the podium during the "Day of Infamy" speech was a great undertaking of both planning and energy - and that was practically in FDR's backyard.
 
I'm not sure if I've ever seen this one attempted though please signpost me if it has.

As the above says - FDR doesn't contract Polio and doesn't end up in a wheelchair. How would this affect his political career going forward?

It would kill it. He was involved in a scandal about that time, which his opponents backed off of, because 'why kick a man when he's down'. If he stays active or even potentially active, he'll get driven out of politics.

From a previous thread.

Also


FDR without polio (Multi-page thread 1 2)
MattII

FDR doesn't get polio
RandomIdeaGuy

Would FDR become POTUS without polio?
RogueBeaver

FDR Never Paralyzed (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Rekjavik
 
Top