There are going to be some odd moments of deja vu.
"No one expects the Soviet Inquisition."
"No one expects the Soviet Inquisition."
Fate of the Pope/Vatican in a Soviet occupation scenario
- Thread starter dmz23
- Start date
This would depend on who's leading the Soviet Union.
Stalin would find a way to fabricate a reason after the invasion.
He could find a reason but he'd never get away with it. Even if the Vatican joined the Axis he'd need to tread carefully I expect, if he's in Rome then there are a hell of a lot more Catholics under Soviet occupation.
Have the local communists do the SU dirty work and declare the Lateran Treaty null and void as having being signed by the "illegitimate fascist government based on the unlawfull imposition of catholicism upon italy". The vatican is then absorbed within the Italian Democratic Republic and the clergy kicked out.
Where they end out ? Spain would be my guess. Franco would welcome them with open arms although one caveat is that he would probably make it clear that they need to behave themselves and not get involve.
Stalin might find a puppet Pope more to his liking. He could use it to appeal to left-wing Catholics unhappy with the politically right-wing church at the time.
Even though this Pope is obviously not his own man, if he's seen as friendlier to the poor, that might give him some PR points.
Given his background as an Orthodox priest, I'm wondering if he might try reduce the power of the Pope vis-a-vis the Patriarch of Constantinople and the other regional leaders. The more Orthodox model.
Supposedly Stalin meddled in Catholic-Orthodox stuff in Eastern Europe in favor of Orthodoxy. I can't remember who said it, but it was said on here somewhere.
Even though this Pope is obviously not his own man, if he's seen as friendlier to the poor, that might give him some PR points.
Given his background as an Orthodox priest, I'm wondering if he might try reduce the power of the Pope vis-a-vis the Patriarch of Constantinople and the other regional leaders. The more Orthodox model.
Supposedly Stalin meddled in Catholic-Orthodox stuff in Eastern Europe in favor of Orthodoxy. I can't remember who said it, but it was said on here somewhere.
Political power? This is not the middle ages! Sure, communist propagandists and assorted atheist fellow travellers might froth at the mouth about "theocracy" and "manipulation of the masses" but in reallity by that time the Pope had close to zero political power anywhere in the western world, outside of the few square meters of the Vatican. So moving to the USA would not be such a great loss.
Not supposedly. True. See here for exemple: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniate_Romanian_Church#Persecution_under_Communism
The communists could be surprisingly interested in religious matters if it suited them
1. If the Catholic Legion of Decency denounced a film, millions of Catholics would not see it and it would fail at the box office. The Catholic hierarchy was a lot stronger pre-1960s than today.
2. Ah. I said "supposedly" because it was something someone said that I couldn't remember clearly and I've gotten into trouble for that before.
I think this counts more as "influence" rather than outright "power" and The Kiat did say he differentiates between the two.
I will always have... er... I mean the Pope will always have political influence. And yes, I did mention the difference between influence and power. This is a massive difference if the Papacy sought refugee in America. Our own homegrown religious leaders don't have any power, but they do have quite a bit of influence over politicians.
What about going to Quebec? The USA was too diluted religiously, South America was a bit politically unstable. Quebec on the other hand was an extremely Catholic region (not so much now), in a first world and democratic country. The infrastructure was already built, multiple basilicas, cathedrals, monasteries and seminaries. Geographically and politically safe, with a large base following, Quebec might be one of the best places for the Church to relocate to.
This might be an interesting scenario to look into.
This might be an interesting scenario to look into.
They could then install a uhmm.... "progressive and proletarian" alternative Vatican clercial system. Progressive clergy would then be invited to recognize it. If not enough clergy willing to break with the pope could be found, the Soviet backed hiearchy could start manufacturing them in selected seminaries under their control.
Oh yes, pre-Quiet Revolution, my homeland was a Bible Belt of sort.
Duplessis would GLADLY greet the Pope.
Odd but indeed possible choice, and in the heart of allies too.
Only problem.. the Quiet Revolution was gradual, the seeds there actually earlier some new scholars say, the 50s saw some subtile counterculture and opposition...
If the Vatican were to relocate to Montreal in say 1940. Could it possibly have maintained the position of the Church in Quebec culture?
Based upon the discussion, it seems the consensus is that the Pope would move to either:
- Madrid, Spain
- Rio De Janiero, Brazil
- Montreal, Canada
Wouldn't in a good way. The clergy in OTL already suffered during the Quiet Revolution due to its association with the "Anglo Establishment", the papacy would probably not be verbaly attacked but it would be left by the side of the road until it became irrelevant within Quebec.
I'm not so sure about this. By having the head of the church choose Quebec as its home might well polarize the Quebecois in a more pro church stance. By having the Pope in such close proximity to local society, it would increase relevance of the church to the people.
There's also the high possibility that in the event of the Pope dying, a Quebec Cardinal would be elected as his successor. This would further the churches popularity in the province.
Secessionist Quebec as a gigantic Vatican? A new papal state, de facto if not de jure.