Fate of the Jews in other Axis states after Nazi victory

Assuming Barbarossa is a success, and the UK grudgingly acknowledges German hegemony over the continent, what happens to the Jewish populations of Hitler's allies? The Jews in the Reich and in territory occupied by the Reich would certainly be annihilated, but what about the Jews of Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Vichy France?

Italy

OTL, Italian Jews were assimilated, and antisemitism played no role in the Fascist movement. Early on there were even Jews involved in the Fascist movement. Under German pressure, Mussolini placed restrictions on the Jews after 1938, but until Italy switched sides in 1943, Mussolini resisted handed Jews over to the Nazis. The Italians even protected Greek and Yugoslav Jews under their occupation. This is not to say Mussolini was not brutal. Hundreds of thousands were massacred by the Italians in Libya, Ethiopia and in the Balkans, but Jews were left alone. Would Mussolini be able to maintain this policy indefinitely? If possible, I could see the Italians support emigration - that would eliminate the Jewish population, and the Italians would not need to slaughter fellow citizens.

Hungary

Unlike in Italy, antisemitism was widespread in Hungary. Tens of thousands of Polish Jews were handed over to the Nazis, to be massacred by the SS at Kamenets-Podoski, and hundreds or thousands of Yugoslav Jews were massacred by Hungarian forces during the Hungarian occupation of part of that country. After 1938, Hungarian Jews were stripped of their citizenship, and many Jewish men were forced into Labor Battalions, in which the perished in the thousands. Despite this, Horthy was reluctant to hand over Hungarian to be gassed. In a Nazi victory scenario, Horthy might not have much choice, and might give in if the alternative is a German invasion of the country. In this timeline, there will be no secret negotiations with the Allies, and there would be no chance of any help from Allied quarters, so the Hungarians might just give in. Jewish groups might try to negotiate with the Germans and Hungarians like was done in OTL, but they don't really have anything to offer, and the UK (and US) government would hardly care. So the Hungarian Jews probably perish.

Romania

Like in Hungary, antisemitism was widespread in Romania. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were massacred in Bessarabia and in the parts of the Ukraine occupied by Romania. These Jews perished of disease or malnutrition in ghettos, they died on death marches, and they were killed in mass executions, several ordered personally by Romanian military dictator Ion Antonescu. Despite this, Jews living in the parts of Romania that were not occupied by the USSR in 1940 were not killed, and Antonescu refused to hand these Jews over. Romania would have the same issue Hungary would have in a Nazi victory scenario, namely it would not be strong enough to resist German demands. Like with Hungary, there won't be any help from the Allies, and Jewish groups would be ineffective. Romania's Jews also will perish.

Bulgaria

Like Hungary and Romania, Bulgaria handed over foreign Jews to be killed. The Bulgarians allowed the Nazis to destroy the ancient Jewish community in Salonika, in occupied Greece. Despite this, the Bulgarian government resisted handing over Bulgarian Jews. Would Bulgaria be able to continue this policy after a Nazi victory? Bulgaria's Jewish community was much smaller than the Romanian and Hungarian ones. Depending on the attitude of Turkey, could some Jewish refugees cross into Turkish Thrace? But Bulgaria was a small, militarily weak country. If Germany pressed, Sofia would have no real choice but to hand over the Jews.

Finland

OTL Finland's small Jewish community was left alone during the war. Could Finland quietly encourage Sweden to accept Finland's Jews (like how most Danish Jews fled to Sweden)? Finland is a small country, and certainly could not resist German demands, but would the Germans go to the trouble of occupying Finland to destroy the country's small Jewish population.

France

France, like Hungary and Romania, tried to resist handing French Jews over the Nazis, and instead tried to send foreign Jews. Since France is a defeated power, all they could really do is delay the inevitable, so France's Jews will probably perish. OTL Switzerland closed its doors to refugees, and accepted very few Jews. I don't think Spain would accept any, but Italy might accept a few. Antisemitism existed in the French far right (though Petain himself was not far right, nor do I think was he an antisemite) so there might not be much resistance from the Vichy authorities anyway.

So I would guess that other than in Italy (and maybe Finland) the Jews of Axis Europe would be killed.
 
what about the Jews of Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Vichy France?

Death.

The Nazis wanted to purge every last Jew from the face of the earth. In any Nazi victory, the fate of the Jews is death. It doesn't matter what policies these countries leaders enact, the end goal will be the same: the Jews in their countries will be rounded up and murdered. Either by the Einsatzgruppen or murdered in the camps.
 
The only survivors will be those who hide out in the woods for the ten to twenty years it takes the Nazi regime to collapse under its own weight or the four to five years it takes them to lose a nuclear war with the USA.
 
Finland

OTL Finland's small Jewish community was left alone during the war. Could Finland quietly encourage Sweden to accept Finland's Jews (like how most Danish Jews fled to Sweden)? Finland is a small country, and certainly could not resist German demands, but would the Germans go to the trouble of occupying Finland to destroy the country's small Jewish population.

The Finnish policy during the war was that Finnish Jews were Finnish citizens and thus enjoyed all the safeguards any other citizens would. Hence the Finnish response to the Nazis that Finland "does not have a Jewish Problem". Note that Finland did hand over Soviet Jewish POWs to the Germans in prisoner exchanges (for Soviet Finnic POWs), while several people making these decisions very likely knew what would happen to them. The wartime Finnish authorities did make very cynical decisions regarding people not considered to be under the Finnish state's protection.

After the war, I think the Germans would up the demands for Finland to hand over its Jews, but then Finland would have ways to try to stall/avoid this. Especially as in any realistic Nazi victory scenario, the Third Reich will seriously need its smaller allies/satellites to help contain and manage its huge conquests. Practically, the Nazis might not push Finland about its Jews if the Finns otherwise play ball, accommodate the German economic interests and provide troops for occupation duties in the east, etc, etc.

But if the Nazis nevertheless do push the Finns about the matter, I'd say that even if some would be handed over, there would be a major chance for attempts to smuggle the remaining Finnish Jews somewhere safe. IOTL the Finnish authorities did allow some of the people the USSR demanded to be handed over after the war to escape West by studiously looking away, so giving the Finnish Jews at least some chances to escape would be in character. It is of course difficult to say how that effort would pan out.
 
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Marc

Donor
Eventually, and I suspect sooner rather than later, the remaining two Scandinavian countries are conquered, and their Jews - local and refugees - along with many thousands of others are exterminated.
 
The Finnish policy during the war was that Finnish Jews were Finnish citizens and thus enjoyed all the safeguards any other citizens would. Hence the Finnish response to the Nazis that Finland "does not have a Jewish Problem". Note that Finland did hand over Soviet Jewish POWs to the Germans in prisoner exchanges (for Soviet Finnic POWs), while several people making these decisions very likely knew what would happen to them. The wartime Finnish authorities did make very cynical decisions regarding people not considered to be under the Finnish state's protection.

After the war, I think the Germans would up the demands for Finland to hand over its Jews, but then Finland would have ways to try to stall/avoid this. Especially as in any realistic Nazi victory scenario, the Third Reich will seriously need its smaller allies/satellites to help contain and manage its huge conquests. Practically, the Nazis might not push Finland about its Jews if the Finns otherwise play ball, accommodate the German economic interests and provide troops for occupation duties in the east, etc, etc.

But if the Nazis nevertheless do push the Finns about the matter, I'd say that even if some would be handed over, there would be a major chance for attempts to smuggle the remaining Finnish Jews somewhere safe. IOTL the Finnish authorities did allow some of the people the USSR demanded to be handed over after the war to escape West by studiously looking away, so giving the Finnish Jews at least some chances to escape would be in character. It is of course difficult to say how that effort would pan out.

It doesn't matter. The Nazis wanted all Jews dead. All Jews, everywhere. Finland will hand over their Jews to be deported to the camps or risk being occupied by the Reich or have the government overthrown to be replaced with a more pro-Reich government. There is no other way around it. Finnish Jews will be handed over to be murdered.

And what about imperial Japan and Manchukuo? What would be the fate of jews there? I think story will be different there as they saw the Jews positively.

They'll be safe, at least relatively. But I'm not sure about their long-term survival.
 

Marc

Donor
Under the Nazi Germany nightmare scenario, the only surviving Jewish population of size would be in the United States, with substantially smaller communities in the Western Hemisphere, and scatterings elsewhere (South Africa had more Jews than you would find in all of Scandinavia, what would happen to them is a depressing speculation).
Best guesses are that there were about 15,000,000 Jews globally in 1940, of which 9,000,000 were in reach of the 3rd Reich.
 

Deleted member 94680

Under the Nazi Germany nightmare scenario, the only surviving Jewish population of size would be in the United States.

Err, ok? So the nazis reign supreme and the US is going to be the protector of Jews? The US of Father Coughlin, Henry Ford, G L K Smith and Charles Lindbergh will become less antisemitic in the case of a nazi victory?
 

Marc

Donor
Err, ok? So the nazis reign supreme and the US is going to be the protector of Jews? The US of Father Coughlin, Henry Ford, G L K Smith and Charles Lindbergh will become less antisemitic in the case of a nazi victory?

Err, what does your response have to do with my factual comment?
Two thirds of Jews were vulnerable to German wolves, one third were relatively safe.
Unless the 3rd Reich decides it just has to, for the sake of Aryan humanity, to go after American Jews.

Insanity has no limits.
Agree?
 
The Finnish policy during the war was that Finnish Jews were Finnish citizens and thus enjoyed all the safeguards any other citizens would. Hence the Finnish response to the Nazis that Finland "does not have a Jewish Problem". Note that Finland did hand over Soviet Jewish POWs to the Germans in prisoner exchanges (for Soviet Finnic POWs), while several people making these decisions very likely knew what would happen to them. The wartime Finnish authorities did make very cynical decisions regarding people not considered to be under the Finnish state's protection.

After the war, I think the Germans would up the demands for Finland to hand over its Jews, but then Finland would have ways to try to stall/avoid this. Especially as in any realistic Nazi victory scenario, the Third Reich will seriously need its smaller allies/satellites to help contain and manage its huge conquests. Practically, the Nazis might not push Finland about its Jews if the Finns otherwise play ball, accommodate the German economic interests and provide troops for occupation duties in the east, etc, etc.

But if the Nazis nevertheless do push the Finns about the matter, I'd say that even if some would be handed over, there would be a major chance for attempts to smuggle the remaining Finnish Jews somewhere safe. IOTL the Finnish authorities did allow some of the people the USSR demanded to be handed over after the war to escape West by studiously looking away, so giving the Finnish Jews at least some chances to escape would be in character. It is of course difficult to say how that effort would pan out.
Maybe the Nazi's wouldn't indeed immediately request the handing over, but they would insist on categorizing and also on laws to seperate the jews from the rest of the Finnish population at first (if they didn't do that already in OTL) under the excuse of: "We have to work together to administer the occupied territories.We will work with you, but we can't do that if it means we have to work with jews." They would pressure Finland to ban jews from the government, from the militairy etc.
 

Deleted member 94680

Err, what does your response have to do with my factual comment?
Two thirds of Jews were vulnerable to German wolves, one third were relatively safe.
Unless the 3rd Reich decides it just has to, for the sake of Aryan humanity, to go after American Jews.

Insanity has no limits.
Agree?

Well the Nazis aren’t going to be happy with the idea of a ‘safe haven’ for Jews if the Final Solution has been put in place. They want to exterminate them all and a third of the world’s population of Jews would represent a significant ‘risk’. Nazi insanity has no limits. The cynic in me just doesn’t see America righteously standing up for Jew’s rights in the face of a continent-spanning Reich. I imagine a successful third reich would embolden the significant strata of American antisemitism as opposed to reduce it.

OTL none of the major WAllied Powers fought for the Jews specifically during WWII. They fought for their own National Interests. If in an ATL nazi-success scenario these National Interests don’t intersect with overt protection of Jewish lives, I can’t see America taking a moral stand for their rights.
 
Well the Nazis aren’t going to be happy with the idea of a ‘safe haven’ for Jews if the Final Solution has been put in place. They want to exterminate them all and a third of the world’s population of Jews would represent a significant ‘risk’. Nazi insanity has no limits. The cynic in me just doesn’t see America righteously standing up for Jew’s rights in the face of a continent-spanning Reich. I imagine a successful third reich would embolden the significant strata of American antisemitism as opposed to reduce it.

OTL none of the major WAllied Powers fought for the Jews specifically during WWII. They fought for their own National Interests. If in an ATL nazi-success scenario these National Interests don’t intersect with overt protection of Jewish lives, I can’t see America taking a moral stand for their rights.
You are right America wouldn't take a stand for the Jews, it would fight and grind down the Nazis because holy crap how the hell did they manage to win? oh crap they now control a continent and seem to be a peer rival and we don't want to wait 20 years for their economy to implode because we do not have the benefit of hindsight and we don't know the Nazis don't know how to economy.
 

Marc

Donor
If the stress of the war effort is no longer there, then the work camps will no longer be necessary. The Jews might just gent sent to Madagascar.

Death camps, not work camps. Extermination was deemed absolutely necessary.
And, the body count was going to far exceed just killing Jews.


"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Slavs, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Slav.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

(italic line is my addition to the terrible clarity of Niemöller's)
 
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Without a need for slave labor then unfortunately they almost certainly just end up dead, the work camps, horrifyingly actually kept more Jews alive. The Nazi's actions when they were losing and so no longer believed they had a need for slaves were chilling, the camps were liquidated as quick as they could be. Its hard to overstate just how depraved and inhuman the Nazi's actually were.
 
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