Fate of the Bahamas and Bermuda if the US Takes Them in the ARW

The United States was very close to grabbing both the Bahamas and Bermuda during the American Revolution

-The Bahamas had a pro-independence governor and basically allowed the rebels to take control. The Brits had to take them back.
-The rebels were also close to isolating Bermuda until it surrendered to them, but a bad call allowed Britain to bring reinforcements and keep the island.

Suppose the U.S. gets them. What is their fate?
Do they become states?
Are they taken during the War of 1812?
 
I think if they become full-fledged states:

-they will become states, as they are colonies who presumably sign onto the Declaration of Independence (after it's been signed, granted) and thence the Constitution.
-their population is minimal. Their main strength will be giving southern states more senators, politically. Also I do think they'll get to population and economic levels of OTL, albeit more slowly without the OTL Loyalist expedition.
-they may make America take a bit of a bigger interest in the navy.
-1812, taken or not, America will not let entire states just be signed off no matter how tiny, no matter what Britwankers will want you to believe. That'll lead to a longer War of 1812 no matter what the consequences.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I am not so sure we can assume the war of 1812 will happen. Butterflies. The War of 1812 was almost avoid OTL. The new 15 colonies means the USA is stronger. We almost certainly have a bigger navy, and we have some fortifications on these islands. Good chance the UK treats the USA the wee, wee bit better needed to avoid the War of 1812.
 
The United States was very close to grabbing both the Bahamas and Bermuda during the American Revolution

-The Bahamas had a pro-independence governor and basically allowed the rebels to take control. The Brits had to take them back.
-The rebels were also close to isolating Bermuda until it surrendered to them, but a bad call allowed Britain to bring reinforcements and keep the island.

Suppose the U.S. gets them. What is their fate?
Do they become states?
Are they taken during the War of 1812?
No, they are taken the next month. The us cant keep them, they have no way to project power across the ocean.

Sure, they could have taken one or both when british forces were elsewhere. They arent going to keep them. No way, no how.
 
Vermuda would be way too small to be its own state and is too far from the U.S. mainland to be a realistic gain at independence. The Bahamas are slightly more plausible.
 

scholar

Banned
No, they are taken the next month. The us cant keep them, they have no way to project power across the ocean.

Sure, they could have taken one or both when british forces were elsewhere. They arent going to keep them. No way, no how.
That's awfully predeterministic. Especially since the factors leading to those two island networks going to the United States may well have nearly nothing to do with the effective military reach of the United States.
 
That's awfully predeterministic. Especially since the factors leading to those two island networks going to the United States may well have nearly nothing to do with the effective military reach of the United States.
???
You think the entire might of Britain can't take a couple of islands? Sure, they had problems with an entire continent. But the US cannot supply forces there.

Can they take them when the British aren't paying attention? Sure. Could a governor declare them part of the US? Sure. How long would this last? Until the next British fleet arrives.

No way are they staying in the US longer than 6 months.
 
???
You think the entire might of Britain can't take a couple of islands? Sure, they had problems with an entire continent. But the US cannot supply forces there.

Can they take them when the British aren't paying attention? Sure. Could a governor declare them part of the US? Sure. How long would this last? Until the next British fleet arrives.

No way are they staying in the US longer than 6 months.
And if France or Spain are involved, they will want the islands - they're not giving them to the Americans.
 

scholar

Banned
You think the entire might of Britain can't take a couple of islands? Sure, they had problems with an entire continent. But the US cannot supply forces there.
Stop thinking solely in terms of the military naval power of the British and Americans. Regardless of whether or not the British Navy can retake the islands, the question of maintaining their position relies of several factors, most importantly being the popular consent of the people and the international recognition of territorial sovereignty.

I already said that the fate of the islands may have absolutely nothing to do with the effective military reach of the United States. Or rather, all that needs to happen is a popular takeover when attentions are divided elsewhere. Even if the British retake the islands, if the revolutionary leaders support Bermuda or the Bahamas as part of the United States and this claim receives support by even one of the possible backers of the revolution (taking their own gains from the war elsewhere) then it would not be unlikely Great Britain that would sign them away.
 
scholar

As if that would stop either the UK or the US as it failed to do repeatedly OTL. Also don't forget the last thing the US would want would be anything to do with the consent of the people as those lands are overwhelmingly slave plantations.;)

Steve

Stop thinking solely in terms of the military naval power of the British and Americans. Regardless of whether or not the British Navy can retake the islands, the question of maintaining their position relies of several factors, most importantly being the popular consent of the people and the international recognition of territorial sovereignty.

I already said that the fate of the islands may have absolutely nothing to do with the effective military reach of the United States. Or rather, all that needs to happen is a popular takeover when attentions are divided elsewhere. Even if the British retake the islands, if the revolutionary leaders support Bermuda or the Bahamas as part of the United States and this claim receives support by even one of the possible backers of the revolution (taking their own gains from the war elsewhere) then it would not be unlikely Great Britain that would sign them away.
 
Also, for all you people who say that if Britain 'takes them back' if they swing to the Revolution...it may surprise you to know Georgia and New York City were conquered and yet they aren't British. :) If the island chains declare themselves Patriot then they won't just be given up to Britain by the Continental Congress.
 
I think if they become full-fledged states:

-they will become states, as they are colonies who presumably sign onto the Declaration of Independence (after it's been signed, granted) and thence the Constitution.
-their population is minimal. Their main strength will be giving southern states more senators, politically. Also I do think they'll get to population and economic levels of OTL, albeit more slowly without the OTL Loyalist expedition.
-they may make America take a bit of a bigger interest in the navy.
-1812, taken or not, America will not let entire states just be signed off no matter how tiny, no matter what Britwankers will want you to believe. That'll lead to a longer War of 1812 no matter what the consequences.
Also, for all you people who say that if Britain 'takes them back' if they swing to the Revolution...it may surprise you to know Georgia and New York City were conquered and yet they aren't British. :) If the island chains declare themselves Patriot then they won't just be given up to Britain by the Continental Congress.
A longer war of 1812 would have very simple and predictable consequences. The US doesn't just get a technical defeat, it gets mauled with increasing damage until its willing to make peace. At times like that, vulnerable but potentially wealth/strategic colonies like those islands may well change hands back to Britain. Along with quite possibly other territories.

More likely this won't happen because the French won't go to bat to win those lands for the US and without them the rebels can't do anything other than be a minor irritation. Hence any possession during the civil war that was the American revolution is likely to be transitory.

Steve
 
I can't speak for Bermuda, but no way, absolutely not, do the Bahamas want to go to the US. They might get signed away in a treaty, but the population is going to want to stay British. I know. I am Bahamian. Plus, the population was very small here in 1775, I don't remember without looking it up, but probably less than 10,000; about evenly divided between white and black. The loyalists and their slaves, who came a few years later, more than doubled the population. BTW, the plantation system didn't work here long term; by 1800 just about everyone was back to a subsistence lifestyle.
 

scholar

Banned
scholar

As if that would stop either the UK or the US as it failed to do repeatedly OTL. Also don't forget the last thing the US would want would be anything to do with the consent of the people as those lands are overwhelmingly slave plantations.;)

Steve
You misunderstand, I'm not talking about non-Western European recognition, nor am I talking about the democratic will of the people. Rather, if a few Bermudans find their way to the continental congress and claim to be part of the rebellion and all powers on the side of the Americans agree with this recognition, then British wishes get overwhelmed. Half a continent was signed away, why begrudge a few islands? If the United States is so incapable of actually maintaining them as part of the United States it is bound to fall back into the hands of the British eventually. An 1812 analog would guarantee that, in fact.

The key point I was trying to illustrate is that political mechanations define borders just as much as military reach, if not more so.
 
Florida was British during the period 1763-1783. It then went to Spain, until 1819, when the US acquired it. Why would any part of it then be attached to the Bahamas, which was British territory?
Well, maybe when Florida becomes American they attach it or part of it to the Bahamas
 
Also, for all you people who say that if Britain 'takes them back' if they swing to the Revolution...it may surprise you to know Georgia and New York City were conquered and yet they aren't British. :) If the island chains declare themselves Patriot then they won't just be given up to Britain by the Continental Congress.
The problem is that Britain was basically holding on enclaves by the Treaty of Paris there. If it has full control of these islands, it has no reason to give them up.
 
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