Fate of obsolete German AFVs.

Hello, I am wondering does anybody have any information on what happened to many older German tanks as war progressed, as well as to many captured vehicles that Germans had in their possesion.

Now, I know about how much Germans tinkered with a lot of obsolete armour, turning them into SPGs/Assault Guns or Tank Destroyers, but there is really not a lot of information about some vehicles. For Example, they did have quite a few of Panzer Is, and while some were converted into various other vehicles for different roles, such as assault artillery, TDs, Ammunition carriers, engineering vehicles and training vehicles, what happened to the rest of them? I know that quite a few were destroyed in combat, or worn out completely by use, but what happened to those that remained?

Same with captured vehicles, especially those of French origin, which the Germans captured a lot of. Yes, I know they were pressed into service, either as they were, or modified to fulfill a different role, but there were a lot of them.

I ask if anyone has any info, that would provide detailed numbers on these vehicles.
 
I don't have any numbers but I understand these vehicles would have been passed down to second line units such as anti-partisan/internal security and training units, and were also handed on to Allies who weren't producing Armour of their own. For instance the Fins received 59 StuG IIIs in 1943/44 and these were the main combat vehicles of the Finish army until the early 60's, and IIRC were still in limited use into the 80's.
 
Most obsolete Panzers were field converted into Armored recovery tanks , or ammo hauler's or simply armored tractors for towing artillery. Some lists mention the number of turrets sent to ATLANTIC WALL , etc. Many were sent back to factory for conversion to self propelled guns. A portion were sold/gifted to their allies, especially captured enemy tanks - but many captured tanks [RUSSIAN] were just abandon in warehouses etc due to insufficient spare parts to operate them.
 
It is my understanding that German had shortages of iron ore for steel manufacturing. Was there any effort to take these older AFV's and captured AFV's especially the Russians tanks and recycle them into new weapons?
 
It is my understanding that German had shortages of iron ore for steel manufacturing. Was there any effort to take these older AFV's and captured AFV's especially the Russians tanks and recycle them into new weapons?

Recycling metal usually transitions to a lesser form, loosing the priceless alloys that make critical armor/gun metal possible etc etc. Better to repurpose them. A sizable amount of contemporary tank production had to be diverted to build new ARV & Command tanks ,Armored engineering tanks & munitions schleppers .

For example through out the war 612 tanks were purpose built as command tanks , when 120 were converted older tanks.
Likewise 232 tanks were purpose built as flame tanks, while another 110 were converted.
713 tanks were purpose built as ARV while only 197 were converted.
1928 were built as Flak tanks, while only 125 were converted
913 tanks were built as artillery observer tanks , but only 438 were converted.
1162 tanks were purpose built as ammo haulers , while only 63 were converted.
2109 tanks were purpose built as self propelled artillery , but only 269 were converted
2545 tanks were built as self propelled guns and only 1247 were converted.
1625 tanks were built as assault artillery , while only 52 were converted.

That in total suggest 11839 tank production were wasted on secondary support roles , while another 2621 older/captured tanks were converted to these roles.
 
It is my understanding that German had shortages of iron ore for steel manufacturing. Was there any effort to take these older AFV's and captured AFV's especially the Russians tanks and recycle them into new weapons?

Recycling metal usually transitions to a lesser form, loosing the priceless alloys that make critical armor/gun metal possible etc etc. Better to repurpose them. A sizable amount of contemporary tank production had to be diverted to build new ARV & Command tanks ,Armored engineering tanks & munitions schleppers .

...

Exactly. Metal recycle was confined to vehicles too badly wrecked to rebuild as secondary combat or support vehicles. Even aircraft were rebuilt, or salvaged for parts rather than melting down the aluminum & other metals.
 
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For example through out the war 612 tanks were purpose built as command tanks , when 120 were converted older tanks.
Likewise 232 tanks were purpose built as flame tanks, while another 110 were converted.
713 tanks were purpose built as ARV while only 197 were converted.
1928 were built as Flak tanks, while only 125 were converted
913 tanks were built as artillery observer tanks , but only 438 were converted.
1162 tanks were purpose built as ammo haulers , while only 63 were converted.
2109 tanks were purpose built as self propelled artillery , but only 269 were converted
2545 tanks were built as self propelled guns and only 1247 were converted.
1625 tanks were built as assault artillery , while only 52 were converted.

That in total suggest 11839 tank production were wasted on secondary support roles , while another 2621 older/captured tanks were converted to these roles.

22% of support types were conversions. The raw number suggests a possible error in low conversion of French AFV. My take is French industry was poorly used by German industry & the number of French AFV converted/upgraded represents a example of nazi mismanagement
 
[snip]For instance the Fins received 59 StuG IIIs in 1943/44 and these were the main combat vehicles of the Finish army until the early 60's, and IIRC were still in limited use into the 80's.

The Finns also received a number of Panzer IIID's while Hungary and Romania both received German tanks.

As mentioned many vehicles were converted. For example the Panzer I became the Panzerjager I (with a Czech 47mm cannon on a pedestal), the Bison (with a short 150mm Gun/Howitzer in a fixed mount with shield, vehicle was very top-heavy) and an AA vehicle with a single 20mm cannon. There was a command version and more may have been made/converted.
 
22% of support types were conversions. The raw number suggests a possible error in low conversion of French AFV. My take is French industry was poorly used by German industry & the number of French AFV converted/upgraded represents a example of nazi mismanagement


Yes it looks like only 1/3 of the capture French armor was reused, while in Russia it may have been 1/10th , largely due to the lack of spare parts to keep the armor operational. One thing occurred to me some time ago. If the captured AFV are left in the country of origin or use, and not with Wehrmacht at the front, they could at least allow the German built Panzers to concentrate on the most important front. A number of AXIS allies already employed and maintained French tanks. Flooding them with capture French tanks , could really benefit them.

But there is another angle to work here. Between 1936 and 1942 about 10,761 tanks were built. In addition 2476 of these tanks were also rebuilt.

Between 1943-1945 14,594 tanks were built plus another 1054 rebuilt.

Pretty sure those numbers don't include StuG assault guns and Jagd-Panzers.

As a rule of thumb rebuilt tanks are almost always several years old, which equals obsolete. In limited cases rebuild kits can be designed to bring these obsolete tanks back up to 'near' new condition , but if that is a Panzer II in 1942, does it make any sense to rebuild it as an improved Panzer-II? Surely rebuilding them as Marders ; munitions schlepper or armored recovery vehicles - for the numerous light tanks , makes more sense?
 
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Yes it looks like only 1/3 of the capture French armor was reused, while in Russia it may have been 1/10th , largely due to the lack of spare parts to keep the armor operational. ...

In the case of the French AFV the neglect made no sense. The factories were intact & the Germans had effective control of both the them and the skilled labor. But other than the haphazard use made there was not a large effort. The bulk of the French AFV used were distributed to the armored formations in France, and some may have been sent to Norway. Used to train the replacement panzer crew in rebuilding depleted divisions. When the Allies invaded in 1944 there were little more than a armored divisions worth of French AFV among the defenders.
 
Exactly. Metal recycle was confined to vehicles too badly wrecked to rebuild as secondary combat or support vehicles. Even aircraft were rebuilt, or salvaged for parts rather than melting down the aluminum & other metals.
But if a tanks had burned, it was only good for scrap. There is no repair for how the steel gets weakened that way
 
The Finns also received a number of Panzer IIID's while Hungary and Romania both received German tanks.
Note they were Sold, not given like the US did to the UK and USSR

Nazis were just as good as squeezing their Allies as conquered countries
 
In the case of the French AFV the neglect made no sense. The factories were intact & the Germans had effective control of both the them and the skilled labor. But other than the haphazard use made there was not a large effort. The bulk of the French AFV used were distributed to the armored formations in France, and some may have been sent to Norway. Used to train the replacement panzer crew in rebuilding depleted divisions. When the Allies invaded in 1944 there were little more than a armored divisions worth of French AFV among the defenders.

A lot of the lack of usage of French industry boils down to lack of energy/ other raw materials. Pre war France had been a heavy importer of coal and oil and after the fall of France that became a lot harder. When Germany effectively conquered Europe it gained a massive amount of resources in the short term. But afterwards it was placed into a position where if they wanted to make use of the captured industry they had to be the primary supplier of resources. Most of which were earmarked to maintaing and expanding the German war economy/industry.
 
A lot of the lack of usage of French industry boils down to lack of energy/ other raw materials. ...

In 'Brute Force' John Ellis examined this question. While the German record showed clearly that some items like Aluminum, Tungsten, Petroleum were insufficient, there were a few others, like steel, and particularly coal that were not. Pawing though Elliss charts it looks like French, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian, Polish industry were underutilized even beyond the limits of raw materials and energy. I've seen others suggest the problem here was more the shifting of the skilled labor to Germany. Yet others, like Flanigan point to gross inefficiencies in underpaid or slave labor. Another researcher noted how machine tools and other industrial items looted from France were underutilized. Post war a significant number were found sitting idle in storage sheds or outside lots, never installed in the factories. What all that reinforces to me is that the nazis were inept administrators and failed to manage their industrial base as well as their enemies.
 
I must agree, the Germans demanded many skilled laberors be moved to Germany where they had to be housed, fed and watched. And they were both poorly-paid and poorly treated, not exactly the best way to get maximum effort or even a half-assed effort. The slave labor - well, as Lisa Simpson said "you get what you pay for."

The Heinkel He-162 Volksjager was built with slave labor, and the few that came off the production lines had serious deficiencies that required time and effort to fix (and they never were fully)...
 
The Germans were losing vast amounts of armored vehicles by 1943 and were not able to recover them. Ironically the Russians were recycling the material in older German armored fighting vehicles.
Obsolete tanks for often sent to training units. Out of sheer desperation a training unit of Panzer IIIs armed with 50 mm guns was used in the defense of Berlin.
 
Standard path was to reuse before recycle. Remove the obsolete turret from the obsolete tank, open up the deck and place the largest PaK , Inf Gun etc and create effective mobile defensive fire. Failing that the opened chassis is well suited to be used to haul ammo to the front line units or be utilized as an engineering vehicle. Next step might be to haul towed artillery. All of this applies to capture AFVs as well. As I recall 1800 out of 2500 captured French tanks were converted as such [900 heavier tanks] . Another 1600 out of 4000 HT tractors were also converted.

What prevented these from becoming a operational factor may be as simple as the parochial concerns/attitude of each army/Korps/divisional commander.....its mine!!
 
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