Fate of Italy in a Nazi victory scenario

So just like every nationalist movement and where do you draw the line between ultra-nationalism and nationalism
Are we going to have to split hairs on nationalism vs nationalism which is very extreme?

And the comment you quoted you have taken out of context. It was specifically referring to the nature of Baathism as an Arab supremacist ideology.


yet They still didn't follow the Corporatist economic system of Nazi Germany and fascist Italy and followed economic systems found in other Third world countries
Not really.

Most of what we consider to be corporatist became pretty standard fair just before, during and after WW2.


I would consider call for revolution or the recruiting of young people in various revolutionary movements a focus on violent and youth.
You have missed what I said.
Baathism didnt particularly favour one group of people revolting, and was vanguardist. But it did idolize youth and it did idolize violence in the way you see in fascist regimes.
 
@CountPeter Arab Nationalism = / = Baathism. Nasserists tend to be more moderate.

Another thing, not directed at you but in general, and I understand that this might contradict my previous posts but would Arab Nationalism even be a thing without Israel (which is what a Nazi victory would most likely lead to)?. The 1952 Egypt coup which bought Nasser into power happened because of Egypt's failure in 1948 war.
 
It was specifically referring to the nature of Baathism as an Arab supremacist ideology.
Expect it isn't Arab supremacist and mainly based on the Idea of a single Arab state

Most of what we consider to be corporatist became pretty standard fair just before, during and after WW2.
Regardless they didn't follow the same economic model

Baathism didnt particularly favour one group of people revolting, and was vanguardist.
So just like Communist parties ?
 
@CountPeter Arab Nationalism = / = Baathism. Nasserists tend to be more moderate.
Mostly true. Baathism is a strain of pan-arab nationalism. Its literally the core ideal.

Another thing, not directed at you but in general, and I understand that this might contradict my previous posts but would Arab Nationalism even be a thing without Israel (which is what a Nazi victory would most likely lead to)?. The 1952 Egypt coup which bought Nasser into power happened because of Egypt's failure in 1948 war.
Arab Nationalism existed prior to Nasser, so a Nasser failure isnt going to stop that, and foreign coups are a potential means by which Arab nationalists could come to power.
 
Expect it isn't Arab supremacist and mainly based on the Idea of a single Arab state
In every iteration it has stressed the superiority of Arab culture, and there have been multiple attempts of genocide towards non Arabs.


Regardless they didn't follow the same economic model
Yes they did, like any other non-communist government.


So just like Communist parties ?
Yes, and like Fascism. Mussolini literally writes in praise of Lenin's Vanguardism but proposes its use in the establishment of a new Italian cultural rebirth.
 
In every iteration it has stressed the superiority of Arab culture,
When
there have been multiple attempts of genocide towards non Arabs.
If your talking about the Al-Anfal genocide that was motivated by Kurdish rebellions not by an idea of Kurdish inferiority and isolated to regions where said rebellions happened.

Yes they did, like any other non-communist government.
So what economy model did both the Ba'ath parties follow and the fascist states follow.

Yes, and like Fascism. Mussolini literally writes in praise of Lenin's Vanguardism but proposes its use in the establishment of a new Italian cultural rebirth.
Sometimes, ideologies have things in common, without being the same.
In the Ba'ath case it was influenced by Marxism

I don't think we are going to come to consensus
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...f-russia-and-skepticism-toward-iran-1.6268355

This article details some of it, but a quick google would show you the rampant supremacism in baathist thought.

If your talking about the Al-Anfal genocide that was motivated by Kurdish rebellions not by an idea of Kurdish inferiority and isolated to regions where said rebellions happened.
Yeah, no. When Genocide is literally racially motivated and happens to be targeted towards a people that have seen discrimination for centuries, the idea that racism is not involved here is absurdity on the level of "Hitler just didnt like the greedy jews".


So what economy model did both the Ba'ath parties follow and the fascist states follow.
Modern capitalist economics. Corporatism as a term has somewhat become meaningless, i.e. contemporary fascist Oswald Mosley later described himself as prophetic of how the UK economy would become corporatist.

So if you want to say Corporatism is a strict thing, Corporatism like everyone else, if not, capitalism like everyone else. A large private sector with state ran elements. Ońly real exception to this was the communist countries.


Sometimes, ideologies have things in common, without being the same.
In the Ba'ath case it was influenced by Marxism
But when an Ideology literally has everything in common, it very much is the same. Even Marxism as the influence is shared by Fascism, Mussolini having been a marxist in his earlier years.

I don't think we are going to come to consensus
I agree which I find so strange. From my end its sort of like somebody telling me purple isnt a colour when it clearly has all the attributes of being a colour, followed by people saying that it cant be a colour because it is on the electromagnetic spectrum like other non-colour things.
 
This article details some of it, but a quick google would show you the rampant supremacism in baathist thought.
Need Subscription any sources without ?

Yeah, no. When Genocide is literally racially motivated and happens to be targeted towards a people that have seen discrimination for centuries, the idea that racism is not involved here is absurdity on the level of "Hitler just didnt like the greedy jews".
Any official policy by Iraqi Ba'ath party considering Kurds to be an inferior race. I never said the racism was not involved I said that Kurds were targeted due to their rebellion not out of some feeling of them being inferior.

A large private sector with state ran elements. Ońly real exception to this was the communist countries.
There are degrees to state control and different kinds of state control.The Ba'ath has historical leaned to heavy state control.

I agree which I find so strange. From my end its sort of like somebody telling me purple isnt a colour when it clearly has all the attributes of being a colour, followed by people saying that it cant be a colour because it is on the electromagnetic spectrum like other non-colour things.
From my end it looks like your using attributes can be applied to various movements from around the world. Regardless we have derailed this thread enough.
 
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Need Subscription any sources without ?
Huh, I dont have a subscription and its fine. Try a different browser?
For the kind of thing the article talks about in regards to education "The curriculum includes anti-Semitic motifs, says the report, such as the stereotypical portrayal of the William Shakespeare character Shylock."


Any official policy by Iraqi Ba'ath party considering Kurds to be an inferior race
Aside from excluding them from the Iraqi nationalism, the ethnically targeted genocide is a pretty huge one.


There are degrees to state control and different kinds of state control.The Ba'ath has historical leaned to heavy state control.
Whilst yes there are degrees to state control, barring no private industry its hard to argue a state isnt capitalist in some fashion. I.e. it seems arbitrary to say (for instance) 10% state control is a different economic system to 20%, and its even harder when much of that state control exists in the form of contractual work given to corporations.


From my end it looks like your using attributes can be applied to various movements from around the world. Regardless we have derailed this thread enough.
But these attributes together can, and only apply, to fascism specifically which is the point.

Edit: perhaps its better to look at this from the inverse. If I give the defining attributes of Fascism (which I did earlier in the thread) and Fascism meets all of those criteria, but not other criteria, it would be strange to say that Fascism is not Fascism.

The conversation is somewhat relevant to the thread in its determining the nature of fascism in the Arab world.
 
Aside from excluding them from the Iraqi nationalism
There were Kurds in the Ba'ath party

the ethnically targeted genocide is a pretty huge one.
Does Stalin's deportations of Germans,Tatars, and Chechens and Ingush count as a Soviets viewing said groups as inferiors

But these attributes together can, and only apply, to fascism specifically which is the point.
Expect said attributes you used were quite vague

But when your government is founded on racial ultranationalism, sees itself as about class collaboration, has a strong strain of anti-semitism, uses socialism in the same way that fascists did (i.e. not inherently economic but about modernization), puts an emphasis on violence and youth etc... well I am sure you have heard the "if it quacks like a duck" phrase...
Whats are you using as the difference between nationalism and ultranationalism. When did the Ba'ath party advocate class collaboration and what are you using as a measure for class collaboration. Anti-Antisemitism can be argued to not be a part of fascism as there were Jewish fascist movements. The latter two can be used for communist and other movements, and what are you counting as socialism.
 
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There were Kurds in the Ba'ath party
And there were Jewish Nazis. It happens


Does Stalin's deportations of Germans,Tatars, and Chechens and Ingush count as a Soviets viewing said groups as inferiors
Replace Soviets with Slavs, and yeah. The USSR for all its propganda had huge racism problems.


Expect said attributes you used were quite vague
Ultra-Nationalism, Palingenesis, a Futurist vision of violence and Youth, anti-semitism and ingrained racism are vague?


Whats are you using as the difference between nationalism and ultranationalism.
Ok so we are splitting hairs.
Nationalism is an umbrella term for political ideologies that prioritise one's state over others, as opposed to internationalism, anationalism etc.

Ultranationalism as a term is a subset of nationalism used to describe not only a more exacting standard of what qualifies the nation (almost always racial) but a moral system that places said nation above all other considerations/as the highest moral arbiter.
As im needing to split hairs, the UK during WW2 was very nationalist, but is distinguished from the ultranationalism or nazi germany by virtue of having and tolerating other values beyond or aside from the nation.
Google is your freind. It is not a vague term.

When did the Ba'ath advocate class collaboration and what are using as a measure for class collaboration.
Since Aflaq.
Class collaboration tends to discuss the priority that classes should work together rather than be in opposition.
However in general use, its usually used to describe a system which facilitates this collaboration, as Alfaq proposed the Baatj party would do (as Fascism did as well).

Anti-Antisemitism can be argued to not be a part of fascism as there were Jewish fascist movements. The latter two can be used for communist movements.
You will always find outliers on a given movement or self contradictory ideologies within that movement. If you check out the obscure ideology thread, you will find for instance national communists (most famously the NazBols), Tsarbols and a whole heap of crazy.

As stated before, communism does not have ingrained into it veneration of violence and youth. There are and have been expressions of this in various communist coutries, but this was a loval application rather than specifically key to the ideology.
Nothing about Arab supremacy in said article.
Whilst I would suggest it does through hating on the traditional arabic enemies, again a quick google shows this isnt hard to find https://web.archive.org/web/20110703075400/http://www.christiansofiraq.com/ArabismMar236.html
 
And there were Jewish Nazis. It happens
They weren't open Jews and pretended to German unlike the Kurdish members of Ba'ath party
Replace Soviets with Slavs, and yeah. The USSR for all its propganda had huge racism problems.
Replace Ba'ath with Arab. Soviet Union never used open-racism.
Futurist vision of violence and Youth
Where does Ba'athism have Futurist vision of violence and youth along with a veneration of violence and youth.

Class collaboration tends to discuss the priority that classes should work together rather than be in opposition.
A lot of movements believe society should work together for the benefit of all

Whilst I would suggest it does through hating on the traditional arabic enemies, again a quick google shows this isnt hard to find https://web.archive.org/web/20110703075400/http://www.christiansofiraq.com/ArabismMar236.html
Nothing about Arab supremacy. Hatred and a belief in supremacy are not the same thing.
 
Anyways, can we agree to disagree on whether Ba'athism was "Fascism with Arab Characteristics" or not and focus on how Italy would develop in a "Dunkirk disaster leads to Britain suing for peace and Nazis defeating the USSR in Barbarossa" scenario?
 
They weren't open Jews and pretended to German unlike the Kurdish members of Ba'ath party
There were and are open Jewish Nazis. Weirdos to the last.

Replace Ba'ath with Arab. Soviet Union never used open-racism.
That is a very disingenuos response. The replacement for Soviet to Russian is because "Soviet" is not a race, nor does Racism always have to be "open" to be very present and very real. In the Baathist case however, active genocide targeting people based on race is an incredibly clear case of racist policy.

Where does Ba'athism have Futurist vision of violence and youth along with a veneration of violence and youth.
I discussed this earlier in the thread. Please refer back to it.


A lot of movements believe society should work together for the benefit of all
Thats an interesting response to the strawman you have made, but the bit you didnt quote actually clarifies further.


Nothing about Arab supremacy. Hatred and a belief in supremacy are not the same thing.
...imposing the superiority of Arabs and hatred towards non Arabs by definition includes the superiority of Arabs.

Anyways, can we agree to disagree on whether Ba'athism was "Fascism with Arab Characteristics" or not and focus on how Italy would develop in a "Dunkirk disaster leads to Britain suing for peace and Nazis defeating the USSR in Barbarossa" scenario?
I will agree to end it there and will bow out/put the thread to ignore so as not to disrupt anymore. I have no idea how I can make it more clear that racially targeted genocide is racist and am getting pretty sour over that and being strawmanned
 
Anyways, can we agree to disagree on whether Ba'athism was "Fascism with Arab Characteristics" or not and focus on how Italy would develop in a "Dunkirk disaster leads to Britain suing for peace and Nazis defeating the USSR in Barbarossa" scenario?

my view you would have a version of Italian Social Republic with greater German influence with Mussolini or someone else at the head no matter.
 
Even Mussolini himself said once that ITTL Italy would just be the most important "allied province" of Nazi Germany.

@CountPeter : The vague thing about fascism is - on the one hand they were big about tradition, OTOH they also wanted to be even more modern than anyone else. That's why Umberto Eco mentioned that fascism is built on contradictions.
 
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