Fate of Hitler and high ranking subordinates in a quick allied victory.

I have wondered what would of happened to Hitler an Co is ww2 was much shorter, say lasting only until 1940/1941. Either say by a successful Saar offensive or by the Allies being the ones to send their tanks through the ardennes instead of Germany.
In these cases, what would happen to Hitler and high ranking subordinates?
 
Honestly? I’d hope they just shoot him. This would still be a Hitler who has a great deal of his charisma and intelligence about him, rather then the wreck of 1945. We haven’t put all that many dictators, tyrants, or other authoritarian rulers on trial, but for those we did the trend is for them to be powerful courtroom presences.

King Charles I of England - for all his previous reign a weak and inarticulate man - put in his most magisterial performance at his trial and decried the court as illegal in words that are still quoted today. A decade later all those men who tried him who still lived were painfully put to death as traitors.

Slobodan Milosevic was active and rational at his trial, dragging the proceedings on four years and repeatedly attacking the legitimacy of the proceedings and often taking control of the courtroom, using it repeatedly as a political platform and berating the witnesses. He managed to drag the proceedings on long enough that he died before the court could reach a verdict. By then Milosevic had managed to inflict lasting damage on the reputation of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.

Because of the Milosevic experience the Americans ensured that Saddam Hussein would be tried locally, rather than by an international tribunal. Like other dictators, Saddam actively challenged the court's legitimacy and repeatedly pointed to the Americans as the true enemy. And after his death the trial was seen by many Sunni Iraqis as a sectarian death squad puppeted by the Americans, which played a part in the growing Sunni-Shia tensions.

History suggests that there are very real dangers involved in putting charismatic dictators on the stand, particularly when they have nothing to gain (no possible verdict of innocence) by playing by the court's rules.
 
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Well Hitler would not have the invulnerability myth in 1940-41 that he had by 1945. Question I feel is how do the Wehrmacht and other German leaders react to what will be seen as a massive miscalculation Hitler had made? If the French and British hold the line and throw the Germans back, will the Army and establishment continue to support him?
 
If Hitler is overthrown by a military coup, a new stab-in-the-back myth might arise postwar, in which Germany's defeat is blamed on a few traitorous officers.
 
If Hitler is overthrown by a military coup, a new stab-in-the-back myth might arise postwar, in which Germany's defeat is blamed on a few traitorous officers.

What were Britain and France's plans for Germany in a best case scenario? They'd probably want to avoid a third round with Germany, would they push to take the whole country?
 
King Charles I of England - for all his previous reign a weak and inarticulate man - put in his most magisterial performance at his trial and decried the court as illegal in words that are still quoted today. A decade later all those men who tried him who still lived were painfully put to death as traitors.

Hopefully, that shouldn't happen.
 
A quick allied victory still needs the Germans as a bulwark against the Soviets. I suspect you would see a permanent French/Belgian garrison in the Rheinland, British/Dutch garrisons in the harbor towns, and a combined garrison in Berlin.

The high command and top Nazis would be put on trial and executed a la Nuremberg, but the occupied Bundesrepublik would be allowed to maintain an army and air force. In lieu of reparations, Germany would be required to sign a permanent alliance with the allies and forego any right to a domestic arms industry. You might see a puppetized rump Poland in the East, but I suspect the USSR would have taken the lot as the Nazis collapsed.

Some Nazis might find refuge in the USSR after the war, but once they've been mined of military and scientific secrets, I suspect they get the purge treatment next time Stalin has a bad dream.

Edit: Reparations might be ordered for the Jewish community of Germany.
 
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I doubt the Allies would care about the Jews all that much if there wasn't anything on the scales of the OTL Holocaust.

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If Hitler is overthrown by a military coup, a new stab-in-the-back myth might arise postwar, in which Germany's defeat is blamed on a few traitorous officers.
I think more likely is that they would be hailed as heros for saving Germany from the mess that Nazis started.

Writer 1: "I have an idea for a new dystopian what if"
Writer 2: "oh, what's that"?
Writer 1: "Imagine that the Halder Coup didn't happen in 1940, what would have happened if Hitler stayed in power"
[Writes OTL history as TL]
Cal-Bear: "This forum has a rule against mega-death scenarios for the sake of it, and trying to equate Hitler, who was clownish at best, to Stalin smacks strong of Stalinist Apologism - here's a ticket to the 17:23 to Coventry. We divorce you".
 
I think more likely is that they would be hailed as heros for saving Germany from the mess that Nazis started.

Writer 1: "I have an idea for a new dystopian what if"
Writer 2: "oh, what's that"?
Writer 1: "Imagine that the Halder Coup didn't happen in 1940, what would have happened if Hitler stayed in power"
[Writes OTL history as TL]
Cal-Bear: "This forum has a rule against mega-death scenarios for the sake of it, and trying to equate Hitler, who was clownish at best, to Stalin smacks strong of Stalinist Apologism - here's a ticket to the 17:23 to Coventry. We divorce you".
This made me chuckle.
 
Without the Final Solution, the Nazis treatment of Jews might not look much different from some other countries. The concentration camps are not yet death camps and won't seem much different from the gulags. There will be no charges of Genocide or Crimes Against Humanity

There won't be a Nuremburg, the most likely outcome is like at the end of WW1, some sort of revolution inside Germany, whether popular or military. Perhaps the Allies will encourage this new regime to act like Iraq against Saddam and hold trials to kill the Nazi leaders
 
A quick allied victory still needs the Germans as a bulwark against the Soviets. I suspect you would see a permanent French/Belgian garrison in the Rheinland, British/Dutch garrisons in the harbor towns, and a combined garrison in Berlin.

The high command and top Nazis would be put on trial and executed a la Nuremberg, but the occupied Bundesrepublik would be allowed to maintain an army and air force. In lieu of reparations, Germany would be required to sign a permanent alliance with the allies and forego any right to a domestic arms industry. You might see a puppetized rump Poland in the East, but I suspect the USSR would have taken the lot as the Nazis collapsed.

Some Nazis might find refuge in the USSR after the war, but once they've been mined of military and scientific secrets, I suspect they get the purge treatment next time Stalin has a bad dream.

Edit: Reparations might be ordered for the Jewish community of Germany.
My take

Definite
Loss of all territory gained by the Nazi's
Poland being compensated for what the Nazi's did, remaining polish areas of Germany, Danzig and possibly bits of East Prussia. Level of compensation depending on many civilians were rounded up and killed ( Nazi's started as soon as the border was crossed ). Soviets will not get Poland as the Entente's entire reason for the war was to guarantee Poland. Stalin was not a gambler and the Red Army is not yet recovered from the purges. He will argue the Curzon line is Poland's actual border, he just regained occupied Russian territory and if Poland warrants compensation for this, take it from Germany.
Outlawing of the Nazi party
Reduction in military forces to self defense levels with submarines banned.
Government acceptable to the Entente.
Compensation paid to all victims, Entente citizens first.

Probable
Some population transfer, Poland will want to expel anyone it thinks is a Nazi supporter even if they did not do enough to warrant a normal criminal trial.
Some compensation for the cost of the war, possibly in kind rather than currency
Germany renouncing all claims to territory outside its borders and forbidding any future union with Austria.
War crimes trials for those responsible for actions in Poland. Some will be handed over to the Poles , others tried in Germany
Compensation for Czechoslovakia, expulsion of Nazi's from Czechoslovakia to Germany
 
Without the Final Solution, the Nazis treatment of Jews might not look much different from some other countries. The concentration camps are not yet death camps and won't seem much different from the gulags. There will be no charges of Genocide or Crimes Against Humanity

There won't be a Nuremburg, the most likely outcome is like at the end of WW1, some sort of revolution inside Germany, whether popular or military. Perhaps the Allies will encourage this new regime to act like Iraq against Saddam and hold trials to kill the Nazi leaders
The Poles will disagree, no big camps but massacres and other actions started immediately inside Poland. Will be different to OTL as near equal numbers of Slav's would have been killed so more a Polish Holocaust rather than a pure Jewish one.
 
My take

Definite
Loss of all territory gained by the Nazi's
Poland being compensated for what the Nazi's did, remaining polish areas of Germany, Danzig and possibly bits of East Prussia. Level of compensation depending on many civilians were rounded up and killed ( Nazi's started as soon as the border was crossed ). Soviets will not get Poland as the Entente's entire reason for the war was to guarantee Poland. Stalin was not a gambler and the Red Army is not yet recovered from the purges. He will argue the Curzon line is Poland's actual border, he just regained occupied Russian territory and if Poland warrants compensation for this, take it from Germany.
Outlawing of the Nazi party
Reduction in military forces to self defense levels with submarines banned.
Government acceptable to the Entente.
Compensation paid to all victims, Entente citizens first.

Probable
Some population transfer, Poland will want to expel anyone it thinks is a Nazi supporter even if they did not do enough to warrant a normal criminal trial.
Some compensation for the cost of the war, possibly in kind rather than currency
Germany renouncing all claims to territory outside its borders and forbidding any future union with Austria.
War crimes trials for those responsible for actions in Poland. Some will be handed over to the Poles , others tried in Germany
Compensation for Czechoslovakia, expulsion of Nazi's from Czechoslovakia to Germany


Yep sound pretty much about right. I'm not sure about Poland/USSR though? How would France and Britain actual push the USSR out of Poland if the USSR decides to swallow it all (i.e what is the realisable threat that Stalin will pay attention to)? Especially as we're holding down Germany and dealing with it post war.
 
Quick allied victory ? Depends who are the allies. Anglo-French or Anglo-French-Soviets ?

If they include USSR, in joint USSR-Anglo-French invasion of Germany in 1939., there is a possibility that they "liberate" Poland and whole of eastern Germany. USSR keeps anexed territories, Poland gains Danzig, but the rest of the east Germany becomes DDR. If not invaded by USSR Slovakia, Hungary, Romania remain autotarian nations dependent on Antante aid. This means Czech republic gains indipendence from Germany, maybe even Austria.

Maybe Hitler kills himself, maybe generals shoot him and try to do separate peace with Anglo-French allies.
Maybe his high ranking subordinates ditch (suicide, killed by USSR or Wermacht) Hitler and Himmler leaving Hess, Goering, Goebels, Heydrich etc. in charge ready to work with Antante in fighting against USSR (Goebels dream scenario). Maybe they just keep rump West Germany (OTL UK and USA sectors).

With Germany not occupied and denazified, France most likely decides to annex/permanently occupy Rheinland west bank.
There most certainly are no international trials, because there are no mass crimes of Final solution or Generaplan Ost, making germans just agressors and treaty violators in average european dictatorship of that time. Without USA there is no one to force nor Germans, neither other allies.

It is very doubtfull that Antante would be able to force denazification and democratisation policies without total defeat of Germany.
 
No time frame has been stipulated.

if we look at something 1940, the world looked very different. Do we anticipate the invasion of France going pear-shaped? if so, the amount of casualties would not have been 'over the top' (compared to wwi etc).

It could also have been in connection with Anschluss. If Italy had said NO, there would have been a cause for a quick invasion.

It could also have been where the Czech nation said NO to Munich and decided to fight on (Czech would NOT have been a walkover in any way. The 'Maginot line of the East = Czech forts were 80% finished). Germany might have exhausted themselves on the Czech border, totally opened up for a French quick invasion (if they could get the act together that is).

In any of these instances nothing would really call for a Nuremburg trial, removal and execution of Hitler and cohorts, etc.

Germany would probably not have been razed to the ground and occupied. wwi ended with the Kaizer going to Holland and a new government taking over. so a few border posts got re-arranged, but nothing major (compared to wwii).

Hitler might have been sent into exile (Switzerland anybody?) and that would be it. Papen gets dusted off and becomes chancellor and we all live happily thereafter


Ivan
 
Many of these things look as bad or in some cases worse than Versailles. They would result in Germany falling to a communist revolution and allying with Stalin, then the rest of the Eastern Europe regimes falling as well.
 
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