Fate of German Jews without Hitler

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Assuming that Hitler never attains power in Germany, what happens to the Jews in Germany? For the sake of argument let's say that von Schleicher succeeds in reinstalling the monarchy in Germany and gets the Versailles treaty repealed. The military gets rebuilt slowly, but WW2 doesn't happen. Perhaps Germany unites with Austria, but this isn't necessary to the question I think.
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?
 
Assuming that Hitler never attains power in Germany, what happens to the Jews in Germany? For the sake of argument let's say that von Schleicher succeeds in reinstalling the monarchy in Germany and gets the Versailles treaty repealed. The military gets rebuilt slowly, but WW2 doesn't happen. Perhaps Germany unites with Austria, but this isn't necessary to the question I think.
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?
It might, but I doubt it will turn genocidal. For that, you need a raving lunatic who is also charismatic or an unchallenged leader of a one-party state... and only Hitler fit the bill.
 
Extremely anti-semitic policies and eventually the forced expulsion of most of Germany's Jewish population. That's as far as I can see a military dictatorship going.
 
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?

Certainly. Hitler did not invent anti-semitism; he expanded upon it and carried it to a new extreme. However, it seems unlikely that the state-supported systematic genocide would have begun without the Nazis.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Assuming that Hitler never attains power in Germany, what happens to the Jews in Germany? For the sake of argument let's say that von Schleicher succeeds in reinstalling the monarchy in Germany and gets the Versailles treaty repealed. The military gets rebuilt slowly, but WW2 doesn't happen. Perhaps Germany unites with Austria, but this isn't necessary to the question I think.
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?


A lot depends on how things turn out. Jews made a good Scape Goat. Someone has to be blamed for the loss and this can't be the ethnic Germans, and will not be the Monarchy in your ATL. It can't be enemy armies, because the army was on French and Russian land. So, if Germany can get its 1914 border back minus A-L plus Austria and Sudetenland, then there is no need for the Scape Goat, then little Anti-Semitism. There will be some because there will be some in almost any Christian Western Country of the time period. If Germany still feels wronged, then yes there will be Anti-Semitism. The German government will likely take the route the Nazi took to support the Zionist movement and encourage the Jews to go Israel. It likely will not do the violence of the Nazi, but use a more subtle approach.
 
If anyone were to get nukes in such a time line, then I think it'd be worth betting that Germany would get them first.

The millions of Jews along with the millions of other people murdered in concentration camps including Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, the physically or mentally impaired (I presume there are others also) would make impressive waves in European culture and society, especially given sixty years to do so.

The Berlin art and theater scene would be... something!!!
 
You might see some increase in antisemitism but it is unlikely to get as bad as 19th century Russia not talking about Nazi Germany. You need a raving lunatic in charge for it to get that bad.
 
With a more generic fascist regime you might see an upswing in repression on the Ultra-Orthodox community. But for the average Jew so long as they go out their way to show that they were Germans first and Jews a distant second they’d probably wouldn’t have to deal with any more than the average level of antisemitism that was fairly ubiquitous in western society at the time.
 
There will certainly be nasty, lingering prejudice, but most German regimes that are not Nazi will also not be particularly focused on antisemitic policies. Antisemitism is just one facet or race policy, race policy is just one aspect of fascist policy, and fascism is just one possible form of right-wing dickishness. There is no reason to think it would particularly matter to those in power. A lot of German ultranationalists were supremely unconcerned about Jews, even those that cared about Slavic subhumans undermining the German people or the yellow hordes reddening the sands of Europe with the blood of innocent virgins, that kind of thing. The Hamburg chapter of the DNP had no problem painting Albert Ballin as some kind of local hero (he was as Jewish as it is possible to be without being called Solomon Rabinovitz).

Unless Germany manages to elect another antisemitic nutcase, instead of, say, reinstate a castrated monarchy or throw up your bog-standard anticommunist junta, the most likely scenario is a long stint as unofficially second-class citizens which ultimately ends as political activism and social change alters perceptions. You'd likely see a German version of "Guess Who's Coming for Dinner" at some point. There would not be big legislative drives because prior to the Nuremberg Laws, Jews in Germany were legally equal to non-Jews, but there would be great efforts to address unofficial discrimination, which was well entrenched. Eventually, hate crimes will be an embarrassing memory (much like Polenpässe and Gastarbeiterheime) and young people will roll their eyes when grandpa talks about "Those People" at Christmas.
 
Iirc the Italy of Mussolini didn't persecute the Jews in any big way until Hitler leaned on them to do so. So is it inevitable that even a German dictatorship will be any more antisemitic than upper-class Europe usually was in those days?
 
Assuming that Hitler never attains power in Germany, what happens to the Jews in Germany? For the sake of argument let's say that von Schleicher succeeds in reinstalling the monarchy in Germany and gets the Versailles treaty repealed. The military gets rebuilt slowly, but WW2 doesn't happen. Perhaps Germany unites with Austria, but this isn't necessary to the question I think.
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?

IMO anti-semitism would still be prevalent regardless of what Hitler did or did not do, or whether he ever came to power or not. I believe so because my research shows that antisemitism came about due to the resultant rivalry between two religions.
 
IMO anti-semitism would still be prevalent regardless of what Hitler did or did not do, or whether he ever came to power or not. I believe so because my research shows that antisemitism came about due to the resultant rivalry between two religions.

One reason is both Early Christians and Jews of the Early Christian period considered each other heretics. It is very common in religions that heretics are considered even worse than infidels as they should know better.
 

yannik

Banned
Götz Aly wrote in his new Book ("Warum die Deutschen? Warum die Juden?: Gleichheit, Neid und Rassenhass" - 1800 bis 1933-literary->"Why the Germans? Why the Jews?") that the German Antisemitism wasn't the result of anti-Judaism rather then the result of envy!
According to his research Jews did better in the realms of education and commerce than their christian counterparts.(His evidence are taxation registers of the city of Frankfurt). He concluded that social 'upward climber' thought that Jews gained ascendancy in the aforementioned fields. But this kind of Antisemitism was coined in the mid/late nineteenth-century and Hitler was a 'child' of this time! Probably antisemitism had died with Hitler-generation.
 
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Nietzsche

Banned
IMO anti-semitism would still be prevalent regardless of what Hitler did or did not do, or whether he ever came to power or not. I believe so because my research shows that antisemitism came about due to the resultant rivalry between two religions.
Mm, but the two big faiths in Germany were slowly returning to the "Catholics/Protestants are the real enemy!" situation. Good for the Jews, really.
 
Götz Aly wrote in his new Book ("Warum die Deutschen? Warum die Juden?: Gleichheit, Neid und Rassenhass" - 1800 bis 1933-literary->"Why the Germans? Why the Jews?") that the German Antisemitism wasn't the result of anti-Judaism rather then the result of envy!
According to his research Jews did better in the realms of education and commerce than their christian counterparts.(His evidence are taxation registers of the city of Frankfurt). He concluded that social 'upward climber' thought that Jews gained ascendancy in the aforementioned fields. But this kind of Antisemitism was coined in the mid/late nineteenth-century and Hitler was a 'child' of this time! Probably antisemitism had died with Hitler-generation.


The "middleman minority" problem, I have heard of it.
 
the Jews of Germany were the most assimilated of any Jewish group in Europe, really I think thats one of the reasons behind what happened in Germany, there being so few Jews and those that there were were so German that it was easy for Germans to see Jews as some other, to not understand or see the real Jews in their towns and cities, any ways, without Hitler Jews in Germany become more and more German, many give up on their Faith altogether to be more German, many Germans have vague anti-Jewish feelings but can't say they know any Jews (even if they do)
 
The disturbing part of the Holocaust and Nazi Antisemitism was in many ways successful. It murdered and displaced millions and millions and millions of Jews. I remember going to the Holocaust museum in Washington and seeing these population figures. Though I can't recall them, there was the dread sense that you could see these vibrant populations listed before the genocide in all these areas and cities, and afterward, you saw those same numbers and populations just absolutely ravaged.

Regardless of antisemitism, without the Nazis, the European Jew will be in a far better lot, not just because of obvious survival rates but also because there wont be the destruction of whole communities and the displacement of whole communities.
 
The disturbing part of the Holocaust and Nazi Antisemitism was in many ways successful. It murdered and displaced millions and millions and millions of Jews. I remember going to the Holocaust museum in Washington and seeing these population figures. Though I can't recall them, there was the dread sense that you could see these vibrant populations listed before the genocide in all these areas and cities, and afterward, you saw those same numbers and populations just absolutely ravaged.

Regardless of antisemitism, without the Nazis, the European Jew will be in a far better lot, not just because of obvious survival rates but also because there wont be the destruction of whole communities and the displacement of whole communities.

Yeah I remember it too. The room with all the little shoes sent me to tears. (though this may be Holland I am thinking of)

But without the Nazi's an occasional anti-semetic riot, a few racist legislatures or government sponsored pogroms (maybe). But no horror akin to the Holocaust.
 
On the other hand it would be acceptable to openly discriminate against Jews for much longer and dinner-table anti-Semitism might well persist today. While obviously very bad news for it's victims it took the Holocaust to change public attitudes to discriminating against minorities (including Blacks, Asians etc.) by showing everyone the logical conclusion of "you can't trust those bloody (insert minority here)!".
 
Assuming that Hitler never attains power in Germany, what happens to the Jews in Germany? For the sake of argument let's say that von Schleicher succeeds in reinstalling the monarchy in Germany and gets the Versailles treaty repealed. The military gets rebuilt slowly, but WW2 doesn't happen. Perhaps Germany unites with Austria, but this isn't necessary to the question I think.
What then happens to Jewish life in Germany? Does anti-semetism still plague the community?

Without Hitler and nazism i don't see a state anti-semitism.
Jews were judged individually for political beliefs,not for "race".
 
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