Fascists everywhere after WWI

Strategos' Risk · Apr 20, 2006

What if WWI had ended with the same victors but with a worse result? Say the Central Powers lose, but France is devestated in the process and afterwards nationalist-fascists take power there demanding more reparations from the Germans, whilst Nazis demand revenge from France. Suppose hardliners, alarmed by the developments on the Continent, call for either isolation or some sort of military preparedness at all times (but defense oriented, unlike the fascists everywhere else).

Could this have happened? What would WWII be like?

Wendell · Apr 20, 2006

Strategos' Risk said:
What if WWI had ended with the same victors but with a worse result? Say the Central Powers lose, but France is devestated in the process and afterwards nationalist-fascists take power there demanding more reparations from the Germans, whilst Nazis demand revenge from France. Suppose hardliners, alarmed by the developments on the Continent, call for either isolation or some sort of military preparedness at all times (but defense oriented, unlike the fascists everywhere else).

Could this have happened? What would WWII be like?

Germany and France literally destroy each other, and the Polish cavalry falls to the sheer numbers of the Red army as they march across Europe. British/Commonwealth forces manage to hold the advance at the Rhine, and some remaining German talent and supplies have fallen into British hands. Britain declares the French empire to be dissolved into the British Empire, and the Pommy vs. Commie Cold War begins

Cloudy Vortex · Apr 20, 2006

Hmm, thought that he asked for fascists everywhere. But one totalitarian is as bad as the next. I like the "Pommy vs. Commie" line.

Darkest · Apr 20, 2006

Check this out.

Pretty much, authoritarian rule has nearly consumed Europe.

I think a completely authoritarian, fascist Europe is SO freaking cool.

Just accelerate the process, and have France gripped by a dictator's mad dreams, while Benelux unifies under a similiar powerful figure. Czechoslovakia is divided into international warfare for some reason.

EDIT: No link? This is what I was talking about: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/euro1935.htm

Pretty much all of Eastern Europe goes under authoritarian rule eventually.

arctic warrior · Apr 21, 2006

Actually You know, most of Europe in the mid 1930'ties were under some kind of fascist or very rightist rule or had their own internal fascist movement to worry about. Go ahead look up the books. It should give you plenty of inspiration.

Strategos' Risk · Apr 21, 2006

It mostly depends on your version of a worse WWI ending, but yeah, I did ask for fascists everywhere. But not all fascists are alike. The main fascist one I had in mind was a powerful fascist French gov't. Benelux and Czechoslovakia would be interesting as well, as local fascist-nationalists there call for strong defense in case they'll be made into pawns to be fought over. You can also have fascist take over in Britain and Scandinavia as well, though I'd suspect they would be less authoritarian, and more militaristic-conservative rather than outright fascist.

I doubt that the U.S. would turn fascist from all this, though. They'd probably just become isolationist whilst preparing for defense.

Chengar Qordath · Apr 21, 2006

I would think BeNeLux would be on the menu for fascist France and Germany in short order. Another possibility is for Germany to annex Luxemburg, France to take Wallonia from Belgium, and the Dutch to gain Flanders from the same. Britain probably goes back to glorious isolation with the Continent under right-wing dictators, or perhaps they cultivate their special friendship with the US a bit early.

Strategos' Risk · Apr 21, 2006

Okay. Let's try starting this scenario.

1. How could WWI have ended worse, with probably a German invasion devestating France, yet with the Central Powers losing? Also, whatever happens needs to be a chain of unlucky circumstances that leads to anger at both sides' leaders and commanders.

(I'm guessing the U.S. would have to provide more troops, ending up with Wilson shamed after greater casualties and a harder victory than OTL, and American isolationism becoming much, much stronger. But this is a side issue)

2. What would the ATL Treaty of Versailles be like to make both sides pissed off and willing to fight in the future to get better terms/territories?

3. What would French fascism look like? I think it'd be like Italian fascism, a nationalist-militarist movement. Who would lead it?

Max Sinister · Apr 21, 2006

I don't see Benelux uniting. The Dutch and Flemish fascists didn't want Wallonia.

Chengar Qordath · Apr 21, 2006

Strategos' Risk said:
2. What would the ATL Treaty of Versailles be like to make both sides pissed off and willing to fight in the future to get better terms/territories?

My suggestion would be a status quo ante peace by mutual exhaustion, after which public comes up with some explanation such as a political stab in the back or incompetent allies to absolve themselves of blame in the failure to achieve victory. As none of the issues that lead to the first war were resolved a second is all but inevitable, and whatever justification is produced to explain the failures of the first war will fuel radicals that will swear to avoid such.

Strategos' Risk said:
3. What would French fascism look like? I think it'd be like Italian fascism, a nationalist-militarist movement. Who would lead it?

French fascism would likely be very much like the Italian model, though likely carrying a bit more of a tendency towards forced assimilation of minorities as oppossed to just treating them as second-class citizens. The fascists might well rally around the Bonaparte or Orleans line for a restored monarchy; more likely the Bonapartes as they are more associated with a French Empire. For political leaders, either some largely anonymous figure like Hitler was, or one of France's WWI leaders like Petain, Foch, or Joffre.

Wendell · Apr 22, 2006

Cloudy Vortex said:
Hmm, thought that he asked for fascists everywhere. But one totalitarian is as bad as the next. I like the "Pommy vs. Commie" line.

Thanks

Now, if only it made its way into a TL...

Wendell · Apr 22, 2006

Strategos' Risk said:
Okay. Let's try starting this scenario.

1. How could WWI have ended worse, with probably a German invasion devestating France, yet with the Central Powers losing? Also, whatever happens needs to be a chain of unlucky circumstances that leads to anger at both sides' leaders and commanders.

(I'm guessing the U.S. would have to provide more troops, ending up with Wilson shamed after greater casualties and a harder victory than OTL, and American isolationism becoming much, much stronger. But this is a side issue)

2. What would the ATL Treaty of Versailles be like to make both sides pissed off and willing to fight in the future to get better terms/territories?

3. What would French fascism look like? I think it'd be like Italian fascism, a nationalist-militarist movement. Who would lead it?

The problem with French fascism was that it was divided into several camps that could never manage to reconcile nor broaden their appeal.

Straha · Apr 22, 2006

get huey long into power or have the 1934 coup go off to have fascists(technically not fascists but crazy authoritarian nutbars) in the US and Wendell... remember the map I recnelty posted on both here and OTL? I made an updated version of it. You should check the thread on it in before 1900.

Strategos' Risk · Apr 22, 2006

Question: Does anyone know anything about SHWI's raging debate about whether Britain's gov't during the inter-war period was fascist or not? I read about it on the Wikipedia article.

Wendell said:
The problem with French fascism was that it was divided into several camps that could never manage to reconcile nor broaden their appeal.

Well, could there have been a figure popular enough that could have united several factions whilst beating down the rest, Hitler style? If not, what about some sort of populistic conciliatory figure who could have united the nation with hate for Germans?

What was the most popular form of French fascism/reactionary far-right conservatism?

luakel · Apr 22, 2006

Perhaps the US doesn't enter WWI? The 1918 German offensive is more successful, though not by much... I think the French and (mainly) British might manage to push the Germans back into Belgium, where a peace is made that only has Germany losing A-L to a badly beaten France, though Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans would lose alot more.

1940LaSalle · Apr 22, 2006

Straha said:
get huey long into power or have the 1934 coup go off to have fascists(technically not fascists but crazy authoritarian nutbars) in the US and Wendell... remember the map I recnelty posted on both here and OTL? I made an updated version of it. You should check the thread on it in before 1900.

Huey Long, at the time, was unelectable as president: no southerner had been named to the top of a national ticket since Zachary Taylor (unless you count the schism in the Democrats in 1860). However, had Long lived, his political savvy, along with Henry Ford's (a noted anti-Semite) millions, Gerald L. K. Smith and Charles Coughlin's radio outlets, and Charles Lindbergh as a front man, could have managed to make America First a viable party and bring fascism or some near-variant to the US.

Wendell · Apr 22, 2006

Strategos' Risk said:
Question: Does anyone know anything about SHWI's raging debate about whether Britain's gov't during the inter-war period was fascist or not? I read about it on the Wikipedia article.

Well, could there have been a figure popular enough that could have united several factions whilst beating down the rest, Hitler style? If not, what about some sort of populistic conciliatory figure who could have united the nation with hate for Germans?

What was the most popular form of French fascism/reactionary far-right conservatism?

How about this one?

Nicole · Apr 22, 2006

I suppose if Pius XI never condemns the movement....

luakel · Apr 22, 2006

1940LaSalle said:
Huey Long, at the time, was unelectable as president: no southerner had been named to the top of a national ticket since Zachary Taylor (unless you count the schism in the Democrats in 1860). However, had Long lived, his political savvy, along with Henry Ford's (a noted anti-Semite) millions, Gerald L. K. Smith and Charles Coughlin's radio outlets, and Charles Lindbergh as a front man, could have managed to make America First a viable party and bring fascism or some near-variant to the US.

America First wasn't fascist, it was isolationist. Same with Lindbergh. And Long wasn't fascist either...

Wanderer · Apr 22, 2006

Fascist Russia

Russia might also become fascist - if the Reds lose the Civil War. The Nationalist parties will intend to regain control over Finland, Poland and the Baltic States. Differences with RL foreign policy will start when Russia invades Finland. The Nazis will do everything to defeat the Finns, no matter what their casualties will be. This might end in bombing of Baku by the Brittish Air Force and even a war between Russia and the coalition of Britain, French and possibly Germany. But a war might start even earlier - the fascist government of Russia won't be satisfied with the eastern half of Poland and the "Battle for Poland" between Russia and Germany can start.