Fascist USA after Great Depression, what would it take?

That sounds cool. But to me, it would be more interesting if the coup fails and Long uses it as a justification to launch a brutal crackdown on his opponents and nationalize big business. He can then form a personal militia completely loyal to him under the excuse that the military is untrustworthy. There's some more stuff he could do too. Maybe J. Edgar Hoover dies while "cleaning his gun" and Long replaces him with a loyalist, while using Hoover's files for blackmail.

Edit: Quoted wrong post.

Personal Militia? That might stink a bit too much of the "Gun clubs" and other militas the Right seemed to be using against him. But nationalizing the National Guard would certainly fly... and besides, you need to get them out of the hands of the governors if any kind of hyper-centralization in the US is going to work. I personally think this is far more realistic than a military coup for exactly that reason: Long would have the justification of "defending Democracy" and be appealing to a very Populist message at the time by going after the bussinesses that not only just tried to overthrow the government, but could easily be tarred as having caused this whole economic mess. If, after this, right-wingers tried to resist his rule, they'd get lumped in with the coup plotters in the eyes of the wider American public who'd swallow their own self-created "Big Lie".

Granted, I can't imagine Long's America getting along too well with the Nazis, but its not like they'd be particularly Pro-British either.
 
Well, we already had a president who seized all the nation's gold, tried making the Supreme Court into a rubber stamp for his policies, and who happily and without trial put over a hundred thousand Americans into concentration camps.

So, not much would have to change, actually...
whilst the internment of Japanese Americans was a huge injustice it is frankly an indication of political illiteracy to call FDR a Fascist, any more than say Lincoln. Woodrow Wilson now he shows some of the classic indicators (although not all of them).
 
Since Huey Long is so often mentioned in connection with American fascism, it might be worthwhile to quote the judgment of James Weinstein: "Of all the 1930s radical politicians, Louisiana Governor Huey Pierce Long Jr. was by far the most successful. A charismatic figure, he is often mistakenly remembered as the first American dictator or the first great native fascist. As his biographer T. Harry Williams wrote, Long was in fact a uniquely democratic politician who had nothing in common with the dictators except their popularity. As a consistent champion of working people and an implacable enemy of the corporate monopolies and Eastern banks, he commanded one of the largest mass followings in the country. " https://books.google.com/books?id=pYHeUBZzCDYC&pg=PT105
 
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thorr97

Banned
Sarahz & all,

whilst the internment of Japanese Americans was a huge injustice it is frankly an indication of political illiteracy to call FDR a Fascist, any more than say Lincoln. Woodrow Wilson now he shows some of the classic indicators (although not all of them).

My oh my, but it seems my observation did strike a nerve or two.

Note please, that I did not call FDR a Fascist. I did however, observe the number of things which the public accepted during those years which even today still seem an exceptional overreach of government control and intrusion of the rights and freedoms of individuals.

Thus it's apparent how "ripe" the nation was then for such a regime to arise - if it was "properly" framed / sold to the American public.
 
Sarahz & all,



My oh my, but it seems my observation did strike a nerve or two.

Note please, that I did not call FDR a Fascist. I did however, observe the number of things which the public accepted during those years which even today still seem an exceptional overreach of government control and intrusion of the rights and freedoms of individuals.

Thus it's apparent how "ripe" the nation was then for such a regime to arise - if it was "properly" framed / sold to the American public.
well you may not have meant to say FDR was a fascist, but it certainly reads that way to me.
 
Well, we already had a president who seized all the nation's gold, tried making the Supreme Court into a rubber stamp for his policies, and who happily and without trial put over a hundred thousand Americans into concentration camps.

So, not much would have to change, actually...

Roosevelt was a pragmatist, not a fascist; he was a pusher, not a dictator. He rounded up Japanese-Americans for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was prevention of vigilante justice, and if he had let them go back to their lives instead of seizing all their possessions and giving them $25 to start over and if the conditions were a good bit better, it would have been a rather positive experience for all.

Had he said, "Fuck it; I'm packing the Court anyway" rather than backing down, or had he tried to override the government or use the military domestically, he would have been a dictator. The most tyrannical thing he did was run for a third term, and even then, if he felt Garner was up to the job, he would have abdicated.
 
Since Huey Long is so often mentioned in connection with American fascism, it might be worthwhile to quote the judgment of James Weinstein: "Of all the 1930s radical politicians, Louisiana Governor Huey Pierce Long Jr. was by far the most successful. A charismatic figure, he is often mistakenly remembered as the first American dictator or the first great native fascist. As his biographer T. Harry Williams wrote, Long was in fact a uniquely democratic politician who had nothing in common with the dictators except their popularity. As a consistent champion of working people and an implacable enemy of the corporate monopolies and Eastern banks, he commanded one of the largest mass followings in the country. " https://books.google.com/books?id=pYHeUBZzCDYC&pg=PT105

Indeed, Long was truly a populist, but calling him a fascist or quasi-fascist displays a lack of understanding of what fascism truly is. He pursued heavily populist policies, and he did brake some typically "democratic system" rules, but politicians do that all the time, just in more conventionally accepted ways (meaning ruling minority-friendly, like gerrymandering).

Sarahz & all,
My oh my, but it seems my observation did strike a nerve or two.

Note please, that I did not call FDR a Fascist. I did however, observe the number of things which the public accepted during those years which even today still seem an exceptional overreach of government control and intrusion of the rights and freedoms of individuals.

Thus it's apparent how "ripe" the nation was then for such a regime to arise - if it was "properly" framed / sold to the American public.

The way you frased it realy made it look like you were saying his government was akin to fascism in its policies. However, now that you explained what you meant, I can say I agree with what is quoted here.

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IMO any break with the system of the rule of said-democratic law in the united states would require the heavy involvement of elements of the military and ideologically-friendly big business (henry ford is the classic example). Any attempt by populist fascist militias to seize power one way or another would be crushed by the institutions of the system, as it would represent a threat to those very interest groups that I just mentioned. So in the way I see it, any fascist or fascist-like regime in the United States would be more of the institutionalist manner, not fully personalist like with Mussolini or specially Hitler. I think american fascism would be highly socially conservative, probably protestant\WASP-dominated, supported by the military and by major financiers and industrialists. Come to think of it, it quite resembles Hitler's rise to power by allying himself with traditional right-wing forces in Germany, only to later eclipse and dominate them (this 2nd part I believe would not happen in the USofA).

To me, the biggest chance for something like that to happen in the United States would be a nastier WW1, maybe a German kaiserreich-like victory, which ends up with the indebted nations of the war breaking their financial compromises with America, leading to an even bigger breakdown of the financial system in this timeline's Great Depression. This could lead to a much more widespread infiltration of syndicalist and communist ideology in the american proletariat, maybe a more legitimately leftist candidate being supported by a major party (democrats I suppose), and then said right-wing elements of the economy and politics conspire with members of the military to create what would initially be called a temporary system of exception, to "cleanse" the nation of un-american, socialist elements. Also, I believe a fascist USA would at first be heavily isolationist, as blame would be placed on international and particularly european political meddling for the ensuing crysis that would gripe the United States ITTL. Actually, I just might write my first timeline based on this idea :)
 
Roosevelt was a pragmatist, not a fascist; he was a pusher, not a dictator. He rounded up Japanese-Americans for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was prevention of vigilante justice, and if he had let them go back to their lives instead of seizing all their possessions and giving them $25 to start over and if the conditions were a good bit better, it would have been a rather positive experience for all.

Had he said, "Fuck it; I'm packing the Court anyway" rather than backing down, or had he tried to override the government or use the military domestically, he would have been a dictator. The most tyrannical thing he did was run for a third term, and even then, if he felt Garner was up to the job, he would have abdicated.
You're really going to say that being put in concentration camp could be a positive thing. To my knowledge there are no major Anti Japanese incidence on the East Coast , the Midwest or the South.
.
 

Deleted member 94680

Strange how often Huey Long's name comes up in American fascist discussions. I, for one, think the complete lack of racism in Long's rhetoric and anti-big business focus probably discounts him from that ideology.

I love the outline of @Emperor Julian 's timline though...
 
Strange how often Huey Long's name comes up in American fascist discussions. I, for one, think the complete lack of racism in Long's rhetoric and anti-big business focus probably discounts him from that ideology.

I love the outline of @Emperor Julian 's timline though...
Long is a more of an American Maduro than an American Mussolini.
 
You're really going to say that being put in concentration camp could be a positive thing. To my knowledge there are no major Anti Japanese incidence on the East Coast , the Midwest or the South.
.

Not necessarily a positive but a necessary evil that is well executed.
 
To me, the biggest chance for something like that to happen in the United States would be a nastier WW1, maybe a German kaiserreich-like victory, which ends up with the indebted nations of the war breaking their financial compromises with America, leading to an even bigger breakdown of the financial system in this timeline's Great Depression. This could lead to a much more widespread infiltration of syndicalist and communist ideology in the american proletariat, maybe a more legitimately leftist candidate being supported by a major party (democrats I suppose), and then said right-wing elements of the economy and politics conspire with members of the military to create what would initially be called a temporary system of exception, to "cleanse" the nation of un-american, socialist elements. Also, I believe a fascist USA would at first be heavily isolationist, as blame would be placed on international and particularly european political meddling for the ensuing crysis that would gripe the United States ITTL. Actually, I just might write my first timeline based on this idea :)

You'd still need the Soviet Union to emerge to get that Red Scare attitude in place. Or some other powerful communist state needs to emerge.
 
You'd still need the Soviet Union to emerge to get that Red Scare attitude in place. Or some other powerful communist state needs to emerge.

Well... maybe if you get some REALLY Red states that start consistently electing Socialist/Communist Governors, state legislatures, and sending Reds to Washington while the rest of the country starts taking a hard turn right, you could get a secession crisis that triggers a Red Scare attitude (Maybe the Federal government passes a piece of strong anti-union legislation or something and the deep Red states try to nullify it)
 
Strange how often Huey Long's name comes up in American fascist discussions. I, for one, think the complete lack of racism in Long's rhetoric and anti-big business focus probably discounts him from that ideology.

I love the outline of @Emperor Julian 's timline though...

It's to remind people that fascism is a leftist ideology - just ask Jonah Goldberg.
 
I, for one, think the complete lack of racism in Long's rhetoric and anti-big business focus probably discounts him from that ideology.

Heck, they even made very racist ANTI LONG leaflets in the 30s, like this one:

cartoon-lg.jpg

"in a cartoon from a broadsheet sponsored by "thousands of Louisiana white patriots", Huey Long is criticized for advancing programs that benefited African Americans. The text of the broadsheet focuses on the dangers of abolishing the poll tax and refers to black voters as the "mongrel vote""
By the state library of Louisiana, I took this from his biographical site
 
The Communists recognized the true source of American fascism as early as 1922--the Boy Scouts!:

"SECURE in the thought that the activities of the Italian Fascisti are confined to a country many thousands of miles away, the organized and unorganized worker in America is prone to overlook the significance of the example set by those Italian young white guards to their prototypes in the United States...

"...The Boy Scout clubs are the kindergartens of the Fascisti-—organized labor destroyers. Yet union men will tolerate the membership of their boys in such organizations. If it is necessary for workers to organize in unions to stave off the encroachments of the master, why is it not equally urgent that the youth of the working class band together along class lines to ward off the insidious poison spread among them through the schools, press and athletic associations. Organization of the workers’ children in workers’ organizations is the antidote against the poisonous formation of the American Fascisti." https://books.google.com/books?id=Frc0AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA7
 
It's almost impossible to get a Fascist America, since the social order was never in any real danger of being upturned. Democracy works by disencouraging the proles from taking part or interest in politics other than voting every few years, while Fascism works by winning over already radicalised proles to get them to defend the social status quo. America's two-party state is just too effective in prohibiting any grassroots movement trying to change things by legal means, aided by the justice system, so there was never any need for Fascism. There are only a few windows of opportunity, when a movement advocating social change could spread its message, necessitating a Fascist response. One was in late 19th and early 20th century, with the advent of widespread literacy and a plethora of small newspapers, but media consolidation closed that by the 40ies, and of course now, with the internet. It's harder now, with communism discredited by its failures and excesses, but one possibility would be a response to a mass 'Green' movement taking over a good part of one party. Environmental regulations cutting into corporate profits, social justice and tolerance messages impeding the old 'divide and rule' strategy and critically, reforming the corrupt law system and fighting corruption in general would frighten the political and economic elites enough to resort to Fascism to preserve the established order.
 
I once wrote that if the New Deal had failed politically, the most likely alternative for America would not be revolution or civil war, fascism or communism, or even Huey Long or Upton Sinclair. It would probably be Arthur Vandenberg or Alf Landon. I joked that this was the most boring fact in alternate history...

(The point is not that America is unique, and that therefore it "can't happen here." Rather, the point is that *most* well-established democracies--democracy in Germany and Italy and Spain was hardly "well-established"--did in fact muddle through in the 1930's, often under center-right governments like the UK under the National Government, Australia under Lyons, etc. Even France was governed by centrist or conservative governments for most of the 1930's, the Popular Front being a relatively brief interlude.)
 
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