Family Trees from My WIs

The point of this thread is really just to put all my family trees in one place. I try to keep them all (more or less) consistent with one of them (some of you may have noticed a trend in them). Usually, I come up with a tree when I just have a thought bunny about it after reading something that sparks my interest.

I hope you enjoy. Again, this thread is mostly just to "get out" what's in my head, so I might jump around, now this, now that, or leave trees uncompleted because I don't know where to go next.
Feel free to comment on the trees, make suggestions for improvements (I recognize I don't know everything):

@Jan Olbracht @isabella @VVD0D95 @CaptainShadow @Brita @aurora01 @Awkwardvulture @Cate13 @FalconHonour @Zulfurium @kaiidth @Carolus @King of Danes
@Noblesse Oblige @The_Most_Happy @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Valena @Rurik @Kurt_Steiner @mcdnab
 
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From this thread:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/luxemburg-lorraine-union.499814/#post-21282685

Rudolf I, Duke of Lorraine [1329-1346] (1320-1346) 1m: 1329 Eleanor of Bar (-1332); 2m: 1334 Marie of Blois-Chatillon (1323-1380)

[2m.] Marie (1343-1344)​
[2m.] Isabelle I, Duchess of Lorraine [1346-1389] (1343-1389) m: 1346 Wenzel, Duke of Luxemburg (1337-1383)​

Marie (1359-)​
Charles I, Duke of Lorraine [1389-] & Luxemburg [1383-] (1361-)​
Raoul (1362-)​
Stillborn Child (1364)​
Béatrix (1365-)​
Isabelle (b.1368)​

[2m.] Stillborn Son (1346)​
 
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On the above tree, I was wondering who Wenzel's OTL wife, the duchess of Brabant might remarry to? OTL, she didn't remarry for several years after her first husband died in 1345 (she only remarried in 1353 and her last brother died in 1352), and she was already a widow when both her brothers-in-law, the count of Flanders and the duke of Guelders married her younger sisters. So I suspect that a Flemish match and a Geldrian one are both unlikely.

@pompejus @Parma @Jan Olbracht
 
Possible second husbands for Johanna (working on a map of the Low Countries in 1349 I found on wikipedia:

Guillaume the Rich, Margrave of Namur (from a cadet line of the counts of Flanders and OTL married to a widow from cadet line of the counts of Hainaut in 1347.
Johann II, Count of Cleves (OTL, he remarried in 1348 to Matilda of Guelders, widow of the count of Loon who, depending on the source consulted, died in 1342/1347)
Dietrich van Loon (brother-in-law to Matilda of Guelders, and, when his older brother died without issue, heir to the county of Loon - which lay directly alongside the duchy of Brabant). He died around 1353, but there seems to be a question regarding his legitimacy (since many sources list his brother as an only child) or when he married Isabelle/Bela van der Hagen.
Edward of Guelders (younger brother/regent for Johanna's brother-in-law the duke of Guelders; nephew of Edward III of England)
 
An idea for Johanna's remarriage:

Johanna I, Duchess of Brabant & Limburg [1355-1399] (1322-1399[1]) 1m: 1334 Willem IV, Count of Holland & Hainaut (1307-1345); 2m: 1353 Dietrich IV, Count of Loon[2] (1322-1371)

[1m.] Willem[3] (1345)​
[2m.] Jan IV, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Margrave of Antwerp, Lord of Mechelen[4] [1399-1405], Count of Loon & Chiny [as Jan II 1371-1405] (1353-1405) m: 1371 Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing[5] (b.1361)​

[2m.] Dietrich (1354)​
[2m.] Maria (1356-1425) m: 1368[6] Eduard, Duke of Guelders (b.1336)​
[2m.] Matilda (1358-1413) m 1370 Willem VI, Count of Holland (b.1356)​


[1] She dies of the Plague
[2] For the purposes of this exercise we are assuming he’s legitimate and single at the time (OTL he married Isabella van der Hagen, but I can’t find a date).
[3][3] Sources mention a son, but fail to give a birth year for him
[4] Brabant lost both of these territories to the Count of Flanders in the Treaty of Ath
[5] OTL married Edward of Guelders
[6] OTL, he was engaged at this time to Katharina of Bavaria-Straubing – a seven-year-old – so depending on whether he and Maria of Brabant have children, Eduard might survive and remove the Gueldrian War of Succession
[7] Son of Willem V of Holland and Matilda of Lancaster. Figure a second stab at a Holland-Hainaut-Brabant marriage is not that unlikely.

@Jan Olbracht @isabella @VVD0D95 @CaptainShadow @Brita @aurora01 @Awkwardvulture @Cate13 @FalconHonour @Zulfurium @kaiidth @Carolus @King of Danes @Noblesse Oblige @The_Most_Happy @Zygmunt Stary
 
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My latest offering (same world as Lorraine-Luxemburg, Brabant-Loon). My thanks to @Zulfurium (who I've been bouncing this idea off for...quite a while):

Ludwig IV, Holy Roman Emperor [1328-1347], King of Germany [1314-1347], Duke of Upper Bavaria [1294-1347], Duke of Lower Bavaria [1340-1347] (1282-1347) 1m: 1309 Beatrix of Schweidnitz (1292-1322); 2m: 1324 Margareta, Countess of Hainaut & Seeland (1311-1356)

[1m.] Ludwig V, Duke of Upper Bavaria [1347-1361], Duke of Kärnten, Count of Tirol [1342-1361], Margrave of Brandenburg [1323-1341] (1315-1361) 1m: 1324 Margareta of Denmark (1305-1340); 2m: 1342[1] Margarethe, Countess of Tirol (1318-1369)​
[1m.] Elisabeth[2] (1328-1363) m: 1342 Johann Heinrich, Margrave of Brandenburg (1322-1375)​
[1m.] Stillborn Son (1334)​
[2m.] Hermann (1443-1446)​
[2m.] Albrecht[3] I, Duke of Upper Bavaria [1361-1407], Count of Tirol [as Albrecht VII, 1361-1407] (1345-1407) 1m: 1359 Margarethe of Austria (1346-1366); 2m: ?​
[1m.] Albrecht II, Duke of Upper Bavaria, Count of Tirol [1407-1408] (1361-1408) m: ?​
[1m.] Margarethe (1363-1398) m: Austria?​
[1m.] Adelheid (1364-1373)​
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1347)​
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1349)​
[1m.] Other children​



[1] The whole Countess of Tirol-Ludwig V and Elisabeth to Johann Heinrich happens as a sort of “exchange settlement”. Ludwig gets Margarethe (and the county of Tirol) while Johann Heinrich is wed to Ludwig’s daughter and the understanding he will receive the margraviate of Brandenburg. Margarethe and Johann Heinrich are thus spared the years of litigation about their marriage (which is simply dissolved on grounds of non-consummation). While I understand that it’s unlikely that the Luxemburgs would trade Tirol for Brandenburg, my line of thinking is that it also frees up resources the Luxemburgs were directing to the on-again-off-again running war in Tirol. As a matter of fact, it leaves enforcing that war to the Wittelsbachs.
[2] “Elisabeth” is the daughter some sources mention Ludwig V as having had with his Danish wife. Other sources mention a son named “Matthias” (weird name for the period). Here I went that Ludwig V and his Danish wife had a daughter practically as soon as dad was old enough to get it up.
[3] Margarethe supposedly (according to Luxemburg propaganda during the divorce proceedings) had an illegitimate son by this name. However, by the time the rumour started in February 1342, the child was already old enough to play an active/decisive role in his mother’s conspiracy against the Luxemburgs, which would point to being older than fifteen (at best). If such a son had existed, that would mean not only was he born before Margarethe’s marriage to Johann Heinrich (if he was fifteen, that would give him a birth year of 1327/1328), but also that Margarethe was nine or ten when she gave birth to him. Margarethe did have two illegitimate half-brothers called “Albert”, and another two named “Matthäus”/”Matthias”. One has to wonder if this isn’t where the “Matthias, son of Ludwig V” comes from: a conflation of the rumour about Margarethe having had an illegitimate son, and then the son being ascribed to Ludwig V (by virtue of when the boy was born) by mistake.

Thoughts, comments and criticisms welcome

@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @isabella @everyone else
 
Any thoughts on whether, without being excommunicated and his marital difficulties, Ludwig V will toss his hat in the ring for the imperial election when his dad dies? After all, as I can make out, the excommunication was politically motivated. Here, with "less" contention" between he and the Luxemburgs, I suppose the reason will have to be different, but perhaps also more difficult to pronounce, no?
 
I imagine that not being excommunicated would help a good deal if he wants to be Holy Roman Emperor and it also seemed he had good enough relations with his Habsburg kin as well.
 
I imagine that not being excommunicated would help a good deal if he wants to be Holy Roman Emperor and it also seemed he had good enough relations with his Habsburg kin as well.
I could definitely see it factoring in. After all, rather hard to elect someone to be crowned by the pope when that person is also under censure from the pope. Don't think the pope's arms are long enough to crown him while he's standing outside the church. ISTR that when Rudolf I was elected emperor, he was under the threat of excommunication from the pope for his attack on the bishop of Basel (and Rudi's previous acts of aggression against the bishop of Strasbourg). When elected, Rudi's first order of business was to write a letter placing himself under the pope's "spiritual tutelage" which arrived in Rome ahead of the missives of his competitors, Ottokar of Bohemia and Alfonso X of Castile. The pope turned around and forced them (Ottokar/Alfonso) to accept Rudi as emperor despite the fact that one of them (ICR which) had been the "papal candidate" in the election
 
Some more Wittelsbachs (sorta):

Ludwig IV, Holy Roman Emperor [1328-1347], King of Germany [1314-1347], Duke of Upper Bavaria [1294-1347], Duke of Lower Bavaria [1340-1347] (1282-1347) 1m: 1309 Beatrix of Schweidnitz (1292-1322); 2m: 1324 Margareta, Countess of Hainaut & Seeland (1311-1356)

[1m.] Ludwig V, Duke of Upper Bavaria [1347-1361], Duke of Kärnten, Count of Tirol [1342-1361], Margrave of Brandenburg [1323-1341] (1315-1361) 1m: 1324 Margareta of Denmark (1305-1340); 2m: 1342[see above] Margarethe, Countess of Tirol (1318-1369)​
[1m.] Other children​
[2m.] Margarethe (1325-1374) 1m: 1351 Stepan, Prince of Croatia (1332-1354); 2m: 1357 Gerlach, Prince of Hohenlohe (1344-1387)​
[2m.] Anna (1326-1361) 1m: 1339 Johann, Duke of Lower Bavaria (1329-1340); 2m: 1341[1] Kazimierz I[2], King of Poland (b.1310)​
Kazimierz (b.1348)​
Jadwyga (b.1350)​
Władysław (1351-1358)​
Anna (b.1353)​
Stillborn Son[3] (1356)​
[2m.] Wilhelm I, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing [1347-1358], Count of Hainaut & Seeland [1351-1388] (1330-1388) m: 1352 Matilda of Lancaster (1335-1362)​
Willem II[4], Count of Holland, Hainaut & Seeland [1388-1423] (b.1356) m: 1370 Matilda of Brabant[see above] (b.1358)​
[2m.] Other children​



[1] This match was considered OTL, but it foundered for unknown reasons (the unwillingness of the bride seems a likely cause, since shortly thereafter, Anna is mentioned as becoming a nun at Fontanelles). Matters are further complicated by the fact that sources differ on which daughter of Ludwig IV Johann of Lower Bavaria married (due to the fact that papal dispensation doesn’t name the daughter in question). With some citing Margarethe (who, after Johann’s death married Stepan of Hungary) others naming Anna. Another “complicating issue” is the fact that there is often confusion between Anna/Agnes (another of Ludwig IV’s daughters), since both entered convents
[2] In the words of @Jan Olbracht, Casimir “the Great” is called Casimirus Primus on coins from his reign.
[3] I wasn’t sure what name another son of Casimir’s was likely to get. I thought of Ludwik
[4] OTL this was a stillborn daughter
 
How would a Piast Poland with a Wittelsbach queen affect relations with the Luxemburgs TTL
Would not be much worse than IOTL I guess. After all Casimir was angry at Luxembourgs due to failure of his second marriage and regreted, that he decided to marry Adelheid of Hesse instead of Wittelsbach girl.
 
Would not be much worse than IOTL I guess. After all Casimir was angry at Luxembourgs due to failure of his second marriage and regreted, that he decided to marry Adelheid of Hesse instead of Wittelsbach girl.
Any suggestions for marriages for Casimir's kids? And where Adelheid would wind up here?
 
Any suggestions for marriages for Casimir's kids? And where Adelheid would wind up here?
For Kazimierz Jr Kenna of Lithuania (daughter of Algirdas and oldest full sister of Jogaila, OTL wife of Casimir the Great's grandson) if Kazik looks for agreement with Lithuanians (or at least with Algirdas) or Jadwiga of Żagań (OTL fourth wife of Casimir).
 
For Kazimierz Jr Kenna of Lithuania (daughter of Algirdas and oldest full sister of Jogaila, OTL wife of Casimir the Great's grandson) if Kazik looks for agreement with Lithuanians (or at least with Algirdas) or Jadwiga of Żagań (OTL fourth wife of Casimir).
Do we know if Kenna's lack of children was her fault or her husband's? I mean, given that he didn't have any children with wife no. 2, that might imply that it was on her husband's part, but just wondering. Also, how would such a relationship affect Polish-Lithuanian relations?
 
Do we know if Kenna's lack of children was her fault or her husband's? I mean, given that he didn't have any children with wife no. 2, that might imply that it was on her husband's part, but just wondering. Also, how would such a relationship affect Polish-Lithuanian relations?
Rather her husband's-his second wife had kids with her second husband. And I'd say improved relations with Algirdas does not automatically means improved relations with his numerous brothers and cousins-Gediminids were not particulary loving family, but that is better than nothing
 
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