Fall of II Duce: The Mediterranean under German rule

Mrstrategy

Banned
You un
If the German invade they will quickly (and i mean hours) bog down on the alps as the place is really and i mean really easily to defend and all the tank of the world mean nothing there.
Not considering when that happen; in 1939? Sorry no Fall of France as all the supply, men and equipment needed for that will be used in Italy. In 1940? Well if people say that the Jugoslavia and Greece campaign had caused Barbarossa to fail due to be postponed and the waste of resources...image the same scenario but multiplied for 10.

Basically in any case Germany lose.
You Underestimate germany and overestimate italy army
 
Then explain why the Italian army had such a hard time in ww2 and germany an easy time at least the first years
Because Italy was riding on the ambitions of Mussolini, a man that was losing touch with reality the more it tried to keep the step with Hitler, and that caused a rift between the government and the nation that lead on the immediate to extremely low morale ("what the hell are we fighting for?") and in the long term to straight-out civil war, and did so mostly in open terrain (the advance from the Allies in Italy proper was bogged down even by the modest height of the Apennines, and that was with whole cities erupting in rebellion and hailing the Allied forces); on the other hand, like the very in-depth timeline by pdf27 "A Blunted Sickle" shows, the German army was good, but not superlative, and it mostly succeeded in France by want of French response, rather than because of amazing generalship (the whole Sickle Cut was a borderline suicidal plan that met victory only by virtue of the French army not responding to it); to these two points one must add that the Sickle Cut itself would be flat-out impossible in an invasion of Italy, as tank divisions can't very well burn down the Alps like they did with the Ardennes. This said, Germany still has a better army than Italy, but it's pitting it in horribly unfavorable terrain, while it must hold at bay France as well.
 
Then explain why the Italian army had such a hard time in ww2 and germany an easy time at least the first years mountains can only do so much and I doubt they are fortified

I don't overstimate the italian army, is just that any German direct attack towards Italy mean playing with the strenght of the Regio Esercito as it was trained and equipped for defensive mountain warfare while the German will find that their panzers are an hindrance in the Alps as ironically the various italian tankette will be more usefull due to their capacity to use the narrow road in the place.
It's all a matter of terrain, simple that.

And regarding the fortification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Wall , yes there were a lot of them.
Germany will be always stopped by that? No, in the end they will break through it. It will be quick, painless, with little blood and treasure spent? Not a change in hell
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
remenber the Germans could always bully or ally the Yugoslavians to let them invade throught their border with Italy the Yugoslavians have claims on italy mainland and Albania
 
Then explain why the Italian army had such a hard time in ww2 and germany an easy time at least the first years mountains can only do so much and remenber the Germans could always bully or ally the Yugoslavians to let them invade throught their border with Italy the Yugoslavians have claims on italy mainland and Albania
Ah, yes, the Carso, famous for being an excellent invasion ground... wait.

PS: this is the article for the first battle, but you can find there the links for the eleven following battles over a period of two years.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
I'm just not a big fan of the Italian army specially since it needed german help for every campaing they attempted
 
I'm just not a big fan of the Italian army specially since it needed german help for every campaing they attempted
The Italians just didn't want to fight those wars, nor they were equipped nor trained for them; they gave as a whole an exceedingly poor showing, even though pearls existed. But a brutal slug defending in mountains they've fortified to hell and back, protected by men who had trained to excellency for that job? Yeah, Germany is not going to like it, at all.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
That
Ah, yes, the Carso, famous for being an excellent invasion ground... wait.

PS: this is the article for the first battle, but you can find there the links for the eleven following battles over a period of two years.
you mean 20+ years right it's 1939-40 not 1915
 
That

you mean 20+ years right it's 1939-40 not 1915
And? On mountains, war was still fought in very much the same way (hell, it's still fought in very much the same way); it's not tank ground, at all, and the Luftwaffe has other problems to take care of. If anything, as Lukedalton pointed out, the one who had innovations useful on that terrain was Italy - their tankettes could brave mountain roads, while full-blown panzers couldn't. As much as you want to believe that the Italian army was shit, I'll need to let you down: in the specific direction, tactics, and motivation Germany would have to force, it wasn't.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Even if the Italian army was not that bad,would the civilian population be willing to support a war when they are getting bombed daily (Italian blitz) civilian support is a large part of any war
 
Even if the Italian army was not that bad,would the civilian population be willing to support a war when they are getting bombed daily (Italian blitz) civilian support is a large part of any war
Unless for some reason Germany is ignoring France and Britain, event the small (but not qualitatively horrible) Italian air force is going to stop the Luftwaffe from going full blitz on Italy. Moreover, if they are bombing cities they are not bombing the frontline, which is bad news for the Army as they really need that bombing to try and get anywhere at all.

Moreover yes, an invaded nation is going to resist said invasion, especially when it is based in conquest. I don't know what we did to give you such a horrible impression, but motivated Italians are motivated.
 
Even if the Italian army was not that bad,would the civilian population be willing to support a war when they are getting bombed daily (Italian blitz) civilian support is a large part of any war

It's not that the Allies had treated Italy with the kid glove regarding bombardment and in any case German resources are not infinite if they blizt Italy they can't do to UK or if happen before the fall of France bring all their capacity in that front. OTL Sickle Cut was done throwing everying, included the kitchen sink, towards France...an invasion of Italy, hell just divert troops on the south due to the need to guard the Italian border due to some fear mean that the plan is basically garbage.

Invading Italy for Germany mean wasting time and resources without a plausible reason while the Wallies or just UK look amused by the German idiocy
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Let's agree that it will be hard fight either way it might end up a stalemate like the trench warfare of ww1 with italy
 
Let's agree that it will be hard fight either way it might end up a stalemate like the trench warfare of ww1 with italy
That's very likely - I'm not advocating sweeping victories for Italy, just an extremely nasty sitzkrieg that would bleed Germany white. And then what? They would be out of manpower for the Sickle Cut, let alone for Barbarossa. Italy might win, Italy might lose, but Germany is going to crash down anyway - and it won't take until 1945 this time around.
 
In Italy, Mussolini is gunned down by a foreign nationalist at a rally following the surrender of France. In the ensuing chaos left by ll Duce, his son-in-law, Galeazzo Ciano, assumes control on the country and pushes for Italy's withdrawal from the war. All black shirts are thus arrested as enemies of the state.

This is impossible. Blackshirts made up a plurality of the Italian forces and the Fascist militia was one of the two main branches (the other being the Regio Esercito); you'd have a serious struggle for power, with Italy unable to do anything but sit it out. At which point, a German strike is still far more likely.

A better scenario could involve Mussolini declaring only against France in yet another doomed attempt at the guerra parallela, which still ends up with failure and Germany pressuring Italy into a face-saving agreement; that famous Roosevelt quote about the neighbour that held the knife also holds, so England decides to oppose Italy anyways and tensions run high until it is decided that since Mers-el-Kebir worked well to prevent Germany from seizing the French Navy, the boisterous Italians are to be taught a lesson in not opposing the RN. Stupid, yes, but it's not like dumb things can't happen.

As for what happens next, Mussolini will still blunder a lot, but at least the Italians would be fighting to the last man and go for Egypt first and not on other wasteful adventures elsewhere. The Axis will fare better, though probably not win the War unless the US public opinion starts thinking of the UK as obsessed with their maritime superiority and let them and the Germans settle their differences without openly interfering.
 
Hmm, in 1943 Germany managed to occupy two thirds of Italy, while they were fighting in Russia at the same time.

Of course, a lot depends on details.
 
Hmm, in 1943 Germany managed to occupy two thirds of Italy, while they were fighting in Russia at the same time.

Of course, a lot depends on details.

That was after a total collapse of Italian civilian and political leadership and with most of the Italian army deployed outside Italy proper!
You could have a similar scenario only if civil war erupts in italy after Mussolini's death, which might be possible, but needs some explanation.

As other have said, it is possible that Germany might eventually achieve a breakthrough, even a sweeping victory, Caporetto style, but it is not likely and will tie up several German army corps that would not be available on other fronts, thus creating great difficulties for the German war effort, especially considering how close the French campaign was.

If Mussolini is killed before the war, Germany should cultivate Italy as a benevolent neutral like Francoist Spain and this might even be positive for the Nazis, considering the manpower they had to waste to rescue the Italians in N.Africa and Greece. It would however also mean that the Mediterranean stays, in all likelihood, an uncontested British lake.
 
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