Fall of Byzantines, but Anatolia remains Greek?

Can anyone think of a way for the Byzantine Empire to fall (no emperor, all of the territory ruled by a foreign power or a weak succession state, and stay this way for at least a couple centuries), but for Anatolia to remain a Greek-speaking area? Like how in the west, when the Empire fell but Italy, Spain, and France still speak languages descended from Latin?
 
Can anyone think of a way for the Byzantine Empire to fall (no emperor, all of the territory ruled by a foreign power or a weak succession state, and stay this way for at least a couple centuries), but for Anatolia to remain a Greek-speaking area? Like how in the west, when the Empire fell but Italy, Spain, and France still speak languages descended from Latin?

I think a foreign power has to be absorbed into the population for this to work. Give an detailed answer in the morning.
 
A fairly simplistic answer is that you would need Anatolia to be conquered by someone(s) who isn’t looking to resettle a large part of their people there. Most likely if the region were to be conquered by say the Normans or the Mongols they probably would end up supplanting only the upper echelons of society leaving the Greek speaking peasants in place. While without a doubt given enough time the language of the conquers will end up having a major influence on the linguistic development of the region most likely the language of Anatolia would end up being considered an evolution of Greek or at the very least a descendant of Greek.
 
What's even more important is for the invaders to be pagan.

In Western Europe, the German invaders were partly pagan and partly Arian Christian. The Arians had enough trouble with their Catholic peasants they didn't survive, and the Franks, who converted to Catholics basically got to sweep the field. But, basically, they converted after invading.

With the Eastern Empire, the invaders were Muslim, who weren't going to convert to Christianity - and when you have (a powerful) religion supporting the ethnic division, the new invaders stay separate.
 
What if you had an early POD having the Turkic peoples be partially converted into Nestorianism? Have things play out similarly to OTL, and a group of Turks analogous to the Seljuks invades Asia Minor, causes the Eastern Roman Empire to quickly collapse upon their arrival, and the Nestorian Turks end up ruling over a country that is predominately Greek. In due time, the Turks eventually assimilate to the Greek Anatolian population.
 
Can anyone think of a way for the Byzantine Empire to fall (no emperor, all of the territory ruled by a foreign power or a weak succession state, and stay this way for at least a couple centuries), but for Anatolia to remain a Greek-speaking area? Like how in the west, when the Empire fell but Italy, Spain, and France still speak languages descended from Latin?
How much of Anatolia are we talking here?

One thing to keep in mind is that, during the run-up to Manzikert much of the Anatolian interior was depopulated by the Rhomaioi nobility because sheep was more profitable.

(I would suggest the Ottomans picking up or keeping Greek as the language of government/admin, but that would be a powerful successor state with an Emperor)
 
I thought the Turk conquest of parts of Anatolia was more of a Classical conquest, you know the type where the new people slaughter the old ones and take their land. Or at least innitially, before the Turks realized dead people can't be taxed.

At any rate, have the place get conquered by somebody who wants to milk the natives for taxes. The Arabs might work, if they don't Arabize the Greeks too much. Or the Mongols.
 
Genetic studies, IIRC, show that western Anatolia is far more closely related to its local neighbors than Central Asia: there has been some replacement, but most "Turks" have a bit or a lot of Anatolian ancestry. A lot of Greek-speakers converted to Islam and ended up speaking the local brand of Turkish.

Bruce
 
Genetic studies, IIRC, show that western Anatolia is far more closely related to its local neighbors than Central Asia: there has been some replacement, but most "Turks" have a bit or a lot of Anatolian ancestry. A lot of Greek-speakers converted to Islam and ended up speaking the local brand of Turkish.

Bruce

That.
Perhaps, Serbia or Hungary capture Constantinople (and the rest of surviving Byzantium in Europe). Like the aftermath of the Latin conquest, Greek successor states linger on in portions of Anatolia. Hard to butterfly away at least some of the Turkish states in Anatolia. But the Serbs or Hungarians will have to decisively defeat the Ottomans in the 14th Century to make this scenario possible. Only a permanently weakened Ottoman state in Anatolia might allow continuing Greek states in Anatolia. Otherwise, Greek states in Anatolia will be relegated to the coastal margins, just as they temporarily were in OTL.
 
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What's even more important is for the invaders to be pagan.

In Western Europe, the German invaders were partly pagan and partly Arian Christian. The Arians had enough trouble with their Catholic peasants they didn't survive, and the Franks, who converted to Catholics basically got to sweep the field. But, basically, they converted after invading.

With the Eastern Empire, the invaders were Muslim, who weren't going to convert to Christianity - and when you have (a powerful) religion supporting the ethnic division, the new invaders stay separate.

This (the bold).

One quick idea I have, is that a nomad invader (say, the Turks) goes north of the Caspian and invades the Caucasus from the north, never converting to Islam in the process. If they break through and overrun Anatolia, these pagan Turks that are fresh-from-the-steppe will likely become Greek culturally, linguistically, and religiously, even if the Byzantine Empire falls.
 
This (the bold).

One quick idea I have, is that a nomad invader (say, the Turks) goes north of the Caspian and invades the Caucasus from the north, never converting to Islam in the process. If they break through and overrun Anatolia, these pagan Turks that are fresh-from-the-steppe will likely become Greek culturally, linguistically, and religiously, even if the Byzantine Empire falls.

All the Turks? Need a POD earlier than the 10th century, I'd think. They or whoever would also have to go through the Khazars by that route, who had many citizens who were monotheists of one flavor or another.
 
It's also worth noting that emperors tried to relocate as many Greeks as possible out of places controlled by Turks and into Europe. That's the reason Attica isn't Albanian and the Peloponnese isn't Latin today.
 
It's also worth noting that emperors tried to relocate as many Greeks as possible out of places controlled by Turks and into Europe. That's the reason Attica isn't Albanian and the Peloponnese isn't Latin today.

Would the numbers have been sufficient though?
 
Would the numbers have been sufficient though?

Definitely. Even thought the trend in the passing centuries was away from urbanization in eastern Anatolia, considerable numbers were moved out, especially in what we'd now call Kurdistan. There were enough Greeks to not only change the demographics of the southern Balkans, but also to influence the local language with the influx of Anatolian dialects.
 
Simeon I of Bulgaria "adopts" the Hungarians instead of fighting them, and letting them to take the underpopulated Panonia. He takes Constantinople ( + Dyrachion and Thessalonika, and the European Greece and becomes ERE Emperor. The Bulgarian cultural identity is well advanced by then, and the Greek ERE citizen oppose the "Bulgarianization", thus Asia Minor breaks away as anti-ERE. The European / Balkan ethnic greeks move in Anatolia With non-land borders the two Empires are more secure in aspect with eachother and successfully share the Blacksea region repulsing the Turkic and other invasions...

Thus now Balkans are Bulgaria ( similary of how Iberia is - mostly - Spain ), and Anatolia is Greece. The Bulgarian "Portugal"-equivalent could be say, Albania ( but in the way Scotland and Wales are "separate nations" ), and the Greek ( Anatolian ) one - Syria, Armenia, Assyria ...
 
At any rate, if it survives it won't be the Greek we're familiar with :cool:
Just about any TL with thriving hellenophone populations in Asia Minor and the Bosphorus; especially those without a single central government over them, the Aegean, and the southern Balkans; will be one where it would be more accurate to speak of Greek Languages
 
Maybe still have it overrun by Turks, but by Pagan Turks, who are quickly christianized/don't bring an alternative High Culture into the area.. Basically you're looking for a way for what happened in the Western Empire to happen in Anatolia.

Perhaps the key is to crush the Empire quickly. One of the big problems for the long-term viability of Greek all around the Eastern med was the habit of the Imperial government of relocating Greek populations to more central/important areas as the periphery shrunk. If the Empire isn't in a position to do that, it could help.
 
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