Fairey Gannet AEW-3 in Falkland war - From Hermes carrier

Archibald: Getting a Sea Vixen off or on Hermes (or, for that matter, Ark or Eagle) without cats and traps wouldn't be tricky, it would be impossible - at any weight.

Just because a Gannet occasionally flew 'off' at minimum weights and bingo fuel to a nearby shore establishment doesn't make any of this remotely viable. And the notion of re - fitting either cats OR traps (on Bulwark, of all things!) in anything less than months or, more realistically in this scenario when none remain, years, is bed - wetting fantasy.

Oh, and G - CVIX has worn the entirely more appropriate scheme of an 899 NAS FAW.2 since 2008 -09, rather than the god awful Red Bull scheme.

Regards,

Frank
 
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Archibald

Banned
Sea Vixen is the not the object of this thread, nor old Bulwark. It is just a matter of frustration of having a full-blown (minus catapults, admittedly) carrier in the shape of Hermes, no AEW whatsoever, and AEW Gannet blown by torches in scrappyards at the same time.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Sea Vixen is the not the object of this thread, nor old Bulwark. It is just a matter of frustration of having a full-blown (minus catapults, admittedly) carrier in the shape of Hermes, no AEW whatsoever, and AEW Gannet blown by torches in scrappyards at the same time.

That is sort of a nice summation for why the entire Falklands War took place.

The British gutted the RN (only so much money and the decision was not to spend it on what appeared, at the time, to be unnecessary expense) making themselves appear vulnerable. The Argentine Junta needed to do something to shore itself up. There were the Falklands in the meeting point of the Venn diagram.

War.

Demonstrating once again that sometimes the most expensive purchase is the one you do not make.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
...

As for aerial refueling, the French Navy does the same thing with Super Etendard (buddy-buddy pods)

(how about that ? this opens another can of ATL worms - whatif the ARA Super Etendards had refueling packs just like the French ones ? Of course Super Etendard as tanker is just as crappy as an AEW rotary platform)

Sometimes a little bit more is all that you need. RNZAF Skyhawks used to top up RAAF F-18s before they returned back to Oz. Without that option, the Hornets leaving Ohakea (runway length not an issue) need to wait for suitable winds before heading home on a direct flight (or call on one of their KC-30s).
 
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Archibald:
Just because a Gannet occasionally flew 'off' at minimum weights and bingo fuel to a nearby shore establishment doesn't make any of this remotely viable. And the notion of re - fitting either cats OR traps (on Bulwark, of all things!) in anything less than months or, more realistically in this scenario when none remain, years, is bed - wetting fantasy.

Heh.

Impossible?

No.
They could have had Hermes steam in reverse, and take off that way :D

Just really, really improbable. Just not impossible
 
The Gannets could get a rolling start down the ski-jump.
And if arrestor wires aren't fitted, the ramp gives an inclined stopping force. Has any nose powered prop aircraft used a ski jump? What's the Gannet's landing speed? If it's anything like the Alizé's 83 knots (155 kph), and if Hermes is still capable of 28 knots, you need only shed the difference between 55 knots and the wind speed before slowing to a stop before the ramp.

Did Gannets have the range to fly Ascension to Stanley? Not in standard spec of course, but swap out the weapons for 2,000 lbs or more of fuel?
 
Did Gannets have the range to fly Ascension to Stanley? Not in standard spec of course, but swap out the weapons for 2,000 lbs or more of fuel?
If you're flying the kind that has weapons, it doesn't have an AEW radar so the exercise is pointless.

There was allegedly a contingency plan to use Shackletons to get AEW cover. They had the range to get to the Task Force and loiter for a few hours, but couldn't get back again - so would have had to be ditched. Count up the number of Shackleton AEWs in the RAF, and the time it would take them to get there, and you'll quickly realise why this is a terrible idea.

It would probably have been possible to lash up an AAR fit for a Shackleton, using the Hercules as a tanker (nothing else slow enough) and segregating the fuselage tanks to carry AVGAS for the Shackleton. Still an idiotic idea - the Shackleton would take about twenty hours each way to the Falklands, in addition to time on station. I'm pretty sure that's against human rights legislation.
 
The Sea King AEW2 is starting to look pretty good compared hairbrained schemes like one way missions in shaks.
 

Nick P

Donor
It seems that in order to have AEW over the Falklands in 1982 Britain needed a fully working flat carrier with a set of operational AEW aircraft such as Gannets, E-1 Tracer or E-2 Hawkeye.
The other option is for landbased AEW such as Shackleton, E-3 Sentry or one of the above to fly from an island base. Ascension is just about doable for some of them given refuelling.

Pebble Island. It had an airstrip, the Argentine aircraft there were destroyed by an SAS raid on 14th May. Let's take that a step further and make the raid a full-on capture. The Marines secure the area and the Royal Engineers clear up the mess and install a metal plate runway and fuel facilities.

6 Gannet AEWs are flown off light from Hermes, land at Pebble for full refuelling and proceed to mount patrols accompanied by Harriers. That's the 'simple' part.
:confused:
How long would the Pebble Island runway have to be for takeoff?
How much maintenance would be needed per flight?
How much by way of spare parts is necessary?
How likely was a retaliatory attack by air from Stanley?

Ultimately, would it be worth it given that fighting ceased on 14th June?
When were the main risks in AEW terms?
 
The Task Force had little to no heavy construction equipment, Sid's Strip took weeks to build with only manpower, was only 440 metres long and was blown up by a chinook and damaged by a GR3 running off the edge. A strip to handle Gannet AEW3s would need to be 1500 metres long and would require time and heavy equipment to build, but of course the Gannets would have to be shipped in because you can never get a Gannet to fly 3800km. This would have to all done by May 22 when the invasion goes in.
 
It seems that in order to have AEW over the Falklands in 1982 Britain needed a fully working flat carrier with a set of operational AEW aircraft such as Gannets, E-1 Tracer or E-2 Hawkeye.
The other option is for landbased AEW such as Shackleton, E-3 Sentry or one of the above to fly from an island base. Ascension is just about doable for some of them given refuelling.

Pebble Island. It had an airstrip, the Argentine aircraft there were destroyed by an SAS raid on 14th May. Let's take that a step further and make the raid a full-on capture. The Marines secure the area and the Royal Engineers clear up the mess and install a metal plate runway and fuel facilities.

There would have to be air superiority first, something the RN never achieved throughout the entire campaign, and realistically never could in the timeframe available. Besides putting the support ships at even more risk, it's hard to see how Pebble Island wouldn't be attacked in every way possible by the Argentines, and how it could be adequately defended. Installing a PSP runway would take a couple of weeks, minimum, if the example of lengthening the already extant runway at Stanley post war is any indication. HMS Sheathbill was set up in a week or so at San Carlos, but that was a Harrier strip.

As for ultra long range AEW, fuel isn't the only consideration. There are other consumables such as engine oil and lubricants to take into account, not to mention crew fatigue - early marks of Shackleton in particular were notorious in this latter respect.
 

Archibald

Banned
Heh.

Impossible?

No.
They could have had Hermes steam in reverse, and take off that way :D

Just really, really improbable. Just not impossible

Wow, what a neat idea. Typical British excentricity (coupled with despair of having no AEW cover) might make that option viable.

Seriously, could Hermes (or any other ship, for that matter) steam backwards, and how fast could it goes ?

Also, kudos for the Pebble island idea. We should dug that one further (pun not intented)
I think you could airlift a bulldozer to Ascension island (inside a Short Belfast or an Hercules), then load it into the Task force ships, and finally, airlift it with a Chinook up to Pebble island, where it would level ground flat enough for Gannets AEW to lift-off.
Or just black-Buck a Short Belfast up to Pebble (can't be worse than a Vulcan - slow turboprops doesn't eat a lot of fuel !), and parachute down the bulldozer before the Belfast returns to Ascencion island. If the bulldozer is too heavy for parachute, the Belfast can make a touch and go, release the bulldozer out of the cargo bay with a drogue chute, then accelerate again and fly back to Ascencion.

I'm a fan of the big Belfast (it was the A400M of its time), and would be happy to use it in such a scenario.

If an ATL had Sherman Fireflies send to Stanley and forgotten (until the right moment), I think we could make a decent TL with Gannet AEWs flying out of Pebble island and turning the tide against Argentina.

One way Shackletons are crazy enough, but once the supply exhausted, at least the RAF has a good case for Hawkeyes or Sentries buyout (we expended all the AEW Shacks, you see). As for crew fatigue (noise), the Shackleton was the son of the Lancaster, which narrow fuselage made it pretty deadly for the crew eardrums.
 
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AEW radar lifted by barrage balloon?

Warning!
Radically different solution ....
WI they used barrage balloons to lift AEW radar above ships?

Paras were still using barrage balloons to train young paratroopers. They could lift 5 or 6 soldiers at a time.
The Para Regiment might get miffed about their balloons being seconded to the Royal Navy!
Hah!
Hah!

The balloon and winch could be installed on any hull. The real challenge is building an electronic down-link that enables ships' officers to read radar data.
 

Sulemain

Banned
AEW radar lifted by barrage balloon?

Warning!
Radically different solution ....
WI they used barrage balloons to lift AEW radar above ships?

Paras were still using barrage balloons to train young paratroopers. They could lift 5 or 6 soldiers at a time.
The Para Regiment might get miffed about their balloons being seconded to the Royal Navy!
Hah!
Hah!

The balloon and winch could be installed on any hull. The real challenge is building an electronic down-link that enables ships' officers to read radar data.

That sounds stupid but it might actually work considering AEW blimps have been proposed in OTL.
 
Could you shoehorn a useful AEW radar into either a shorts Skyvan or a Britten and Norman Islander/Trilander? Getting them down to the South Atlantic would be the main problem. A long mexi-float raft might be used rather like the 'Lilly pad strip' designed in WW2, Off load the aircraft from a freighter on to the float in very sheltered water and fly them to the "Pebble"!!
 
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