Fairey FD2/Mirage Replacing the Lightning?

I'm very slowly looking into doing a timeline that's something of a mild Brit-wank, or depending on your point of view one that isn't a self-imposed Brit-screw as our timeline, where rather than in choice after choice after choice they make the wrong decision the gods instead smile on them and they generally make the right/sensible one. Now one of the ideas is that rather than our timeline's decision Fairey instead develops their Delta 2 research aircraft into something pretty similar to the early Dassault Mirage which it was fairly close to. Looking at the early Mirage IIIC specifications to get a rough idea for a production FD2 is there any particular reason why it couldn't take over duties from the English Electric Lighting?

On the face of it whilst the Fairey would have roughly a twenty percent slower climb rate it would still be capable of getting to height in only about forty seconds longer than the Lightning whilst having a better range and what looks like loiter time. The Lightning itself was only meant to be an interim model until the Operational Requirement F.155 plane came into service, hence why it never had the continued developed that it should have done. But of course just looking at the performance figures isn't everything, so figured I'd throw the question out to the aviation enthusiasts of the forum. Thanks. :)
 

abc123

Banned
Looking at the early Mirage IIIC specifications to get a rough idea for a production FD2 is there any particular reason why it couldn't take over duties from the English Electric Lighting?

If there is some reason against that, I don't see it...
 
I would like to register a thumbs up to your proposal, with suggestions that it augment its fuel load, and grow a new nose/cockpit, as well as not looking at all like the proposed FD.3, or at least the available artists' renderings.
 
when was this the 60,s 70,s if so no i would not build it or buy it, if it is then the Americans would be a better option to buy from or build some thing that is sure to be a world beater.
 
A militarised development of the FD. 2 was designed and wind tunnel tested by Fairey in the mid - late '50's.

I'm sure Google will reveal more or you could buy Tony Buttlers book.

Nose was fixed - Twiss and others had made it clear that the drooping mechanism wasn't really required. Standard armament was to be two tip mounted Blue Jay (Firestreak) IIRC.

Frank
 
When was this the 60s/70s? If so no I would not build it or buy it, if it is then the Americans would be a better option to buy from or build something that is sure to be a world beater.
Fairey Delta 2 first flew as a research plane in 1954, Mirage III first flew in 1956 and was introduced to service in 1961. The US planes of the time, what's commonly referred to as the Century Series, seem to be of a broadly similar capability and considering that the Mirage III and related developments went on to sell more than 3,500 aircraft around the world I don't believe that American designs were as superior as you appear to be suggesting.


A militarised development of the FD. 2 was designed and wind tunnel tested by Fairey in the mid - late '50's. I'm sure Google will reveal more or you could buy Tony Buttlers book.

Nose was fixed - Twiss and others had made it clear that the drooping mechanism wasn't really required. Standard armament was to be two tip mounted Blue Jay (Firestreak) IIRC.
Oh yeah, I have copies of all three of his British Secret Projects books. This was mainly running off of Derek Wood's Project Cancelled and some internet forum discussions, haven't had a chance to consult them yet. Mainly it was just to see if there were likely to be any major stumbling blocks people might know of to the idea before I got started. :)
 
Alas, procrastination is something I seriously suffer from. Plus it's going to require a fair bit of reading as whilst I know a little bit of stuff I don't know near enough to semi-realistically completely rejig the UK's aerospace programme yet. :)
 
All you need to do is reach different conclusions in the 1957 defence white paper & maybe look at achieving F155T (OR 329) in two stages - perhaps go for what, today, would be termed a Hi/Lo mix.

Frank
 
My initial reaction was to actually ditch F.155T to be honest. It just seems like the operational requirement was way too complex/technological advanced without the government having any clue how it was going to be reasonably achieved and against an opponent that never really showed up once the Soviets switched from bombers to ICBMs, although to be fair that's mostly hindsight. At the moment my general reaction is for the Lightning to receive the go-ahead as an interim measure, the FD2 to be developed from the start with an eye on production models once they find out how good the initial experimental models are, F.155T to proceed as out timeline but once costs start rising/the defence budget starts getting tight and the prototype production FD2 is showing such promise it's cancelled and the Lightning and FD2/Mirage III takes its place as good enough.

This is actually somewhat problematic for me as a major Lightning fan as if I'm not careful I could end up butterflying it away altogether, which is definitely not good. :)
 
Still mulling this over. One thought that struck me the other day that hopefully one of the aeronautically knowledgeable types will know the answer was why didn't they build the Lightning with a full delta wing as opposed to the notched delta wing that they used? Considering the problem it had with short legs at least in the beginning this wing area could have given them more space for fuel.
 
I think you'll have to get rid of Sandystorm as a minimum - the Lightning only survived because it was a "minor variant" of the P.1A, the P.1B. The fact that there were hardly any common parts was concealed, and it got through. Getting rid of Sandystorm is actually pretty tricky - the country was out of money, and the RAF (and indeed Army) policy was "we want this, so the government is going to pay for it".

The RN did rather better because Mountbatten - in what was IMO the greatest service he did the navy - decided that the RN could do two missions more cheaply than anyone else, colonial policing (carriers and marines) and keeping the North Atlantic open in wartime. He then told the government to scrap everything else, immediately or at their convenience, whichever came first. Net result is the RN more or less got what it asked for, and everyone else got screwed.
 
As mentioned above the 57 white paper has to go or be replaced by something a little less farfetched for the time.Why not go for the Hawker P1103/P1116/P1121 or the Saro P177? Nothing wrong with the Lightning but which ever Hawker gets the green light and the SR177 have more development potential and the latter even had export orders lined up!
 
Still mulling this over. One thought that struck me the other day that hopefully one of the aeronautically knowledgeable types will know the answer was why didn't they build the Lightning with a full delta wing as opposed to the notched delta wing that they used? Considering the problem it had with short legs at least in the beginning this wing area could have given them more space for fuel.

Since I have more aerodynamics knowledge than those who have less, my dog tells me I'm qualified to answer the question. I've also followed the aircraft's development in real time, owing to my great age. Teddy designed the aircraft for highest speed with lowest drag, and the notched delta filled the parameters. Everything was designed for speed, not fighter utility. Had the maingear been designed to retract into the fuselage, more practical use for the span could have been found for fuel stowage and weapons fitment, at the cost of a bulkier fuselage. Had the aircraft been designed from the outset as a fighter, that would have been a wise move. Just as the wing was designed for speed, so was the fuselage. Ultimately, the outcome was an aircraft whose maximum speed was never established because it became RTB while still accelerating. A great aircraft, not a great fighter.
 

Delta Force

Banned
All you need to do is reach different conclusions in the 1957 defence white paper & maybe look at achieving F155T (OR 329) in two stages - perhaps go for what, today, would be termed a Hi/Lo mix.

Frank

The British also had a habit of generation leaping in their military equipment of the 1950s and 1960s. They didn't have enough money to keep up with everyone else and would often try to master the next best thing. The situation they found themselves in during the late 1950s was caused by that. All their proposed interceptors were reliant on obsolete rocket/turbojet hybrid propulsion that made them bulky and under-performing. Examining some of the aircraft in service, testing, or on the drawing boards at the time may have led them to adopt better designs from elsewhere. The Convair F-106, Avro Arrow, and Dassault Mirage III would all be good options for their interceptor requirements. Only the Avro Arrow would meet all the requirements of Operational Requirement F.155 in unmodified condition because it's the only two seater and the only one with a high enough ceiling. If the requirements are relaxed I think the F-106 would be the other competitor to the Arrow because of its heavy missile armament and its clean flight profile (the external fuel pods were designed for supersonic flight). I just don't really see any of the F.155 aircraft reaching service because their performance specifications were exceeded the day they were drafted.
 
I think you'll have to get rid of Sandystorm as a minimum - the Lightning only survived because it was a "minor variant" of the P.1A, the P.1B. The fact that there were hardly any common parts was concealed, and it got through. Getting rid of Sandystorm is actually pretty tricky - the country was out of money, and the RAF (and indeed Army) policy was "we want this, so the government is going to pay for it".
I don't think they were quite out of money so much as they just spent what they had very inefficiently. It seems to be a British habit to start a development project, stretch things out to save money in the short term whilst pushing up overall costs, keep fiddling about with the requirements driving up times and costs some more, then cancel it about half/two thirds of the way through and then have to go buy a replacement. Avoiding the 1957 Defence White Paper is going to be difficult as it wasn't just Sandys, considering the short span of time between his becoming Minister and the report being published it does suggest that it reflected a fair amount of official thinking with him just being the front man to a certain extent. I'm currently looking into ways of mitigating it somewhat, there'll still be something of a move towards guided weapons but it won't lead to such a slash and burn operation on manned flight either.


The RN did rather better because Mountbatten - in what was IMO the greatest service he did the navy - decided that the RN could do two missions more cheaply than anyone else, colonial policing (carriers and marines) and keeping the North Atlantic open in wartime. He then told the government to scrap everything else, immediately or at their convenience, whichever came first. Net result is the RN more or less got what it asked for, and everyone else got screwed.
I wouldn't be quite so generous with Mountbatten. He certainly fought the navy's corner as First Sea Lord and then later as Chief of the Defence Staff, even though it was meant to be a tri-service position, however what he achieved wasn't that great. Okay he managed to sabotage and help kill off TSR-2 and see a fair amount of funding go towards the navy but at the end of the day he also didn't get any carriers he was after either and was a bit too partisan for my tastes.


As mentioned above the 57 white paper has to go or be replaced by something a little less far-fetched for the time. Why not go for the Hawker P1103/P1116/P1121 or the Saro P177? Nothing wrong with the Lightning but which ever Hawker gets the green light and the SR177 have more development potential and the latter even had export orders lined up!
Hawker it going to be busy with their P.1050 model going forward as a naval design and developments of that. The 'fish head' admirals are going to be beaten around the heads with a clue by four until they accept the facts that paraffin/kerosene fuel was apparently no more dangerous or even less dangerous than regular aircraft fuel and that swept wings are perfectly fine on naval aircraft, Sydney Camm apparently offered them a swept wing aircraft in 1945/46, so there's nothing to stop the introduction of jets on aircraft carriers. This should hopefully see the Supermarine Attacker introduced earlier as the straight winged traditional option and the Hawker Sea Hawk also turning up sooner but with swept wings, basically think the Hawker P.1052. It's shortly developed into the P.1081 with a swept tailplane and straight-through jet pipe, before finally evolving into an improved Hunter with reheat that's capable of supersonic flight. Expect the RAF to buy in at around the P.1081 stage when they see what it's achieving.

After that I'm not so sure. Might stay with the de Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen, it did take a bloody age to get from first flight in into squadron service though, or push them into developing the DH.116 'Super Venom' instead. On the Supermarine front might see an earlier Scimitar or instead develop it into the Type 556 if possible, the Type 576 'Super Scimitar' as a British development similar to the F-4 Phantom is appealing but the benefits of a domestically produced aircraft versus the likely smaller production run and higher costs need to be carefully balanced. But that's enough about naval aviation for now.


... A great aircraft, not a great fighter.
Tallies with what I've read, thanks. It's just a shame that it was caught up in the tail end of the 1957 report and also saddled with being considered to be an interim model so never got any of the updates it deserved, some of them looked quite interesting.


The British also had a habit of generation leaping in their military equipment of the 1950s and 1960s. They didn't have enough money to keep up with everyone else and would often try to master the next best thing.
Yep, that's another habit that I forget to mention. I'm hoping to try and avoid this a bit by continuing research and development at a much lower but constant level after WW2 rather than decide that they won't be buying any new aircraft for the next 5 or 10 years and trying to avoid the massive panic buying spree when the Korean conflict hit. Famine and feast is never a good thing.


Only the Avro Arrow would meet all the requirements of Operational Requirement F.155 in unmodified condition because it's the only two seater and the only one with a high enough ceiling.
Thankfully in this timeline OR.155T is either going to be cancelled outright or be seriously reduced in technical complexity, the 1957 paper apparently reflected official thinking so might as well put it to some good use even if it isn't quite as severe as our timeline's one. The English Electric Lightning still enters service but after a number of years once the Fairey-Dassault Mirage III has matured it'll probably start taking over. The only slight worry is the slower climb rate but that can be dealt with.
 
Meeting unrealistic OR specifications was one problem with the Arrow. F.155 demanded the carriage of a pair of ginormous Red Hebe radar missiles in addition to 2 IR missiles of reasonable dimension. To meet this requirement would cost money or, more likely, result in cancellation due to cost.

The Saro entry was doomed anyway, because, like it's concept demonstrator, it was going to be under-powered by its jet engine, the Gyron Jr., of high consumption and low output fame. And the presence of rocket engines on airplanes isn't always that comforting a thought, and of dubious value.
 
Well it had value early on when jet engines were still a bit underpowered and reheat hadn't been developed yet as it was your only way to get your planes up to height in a fast enough timeframe. The problem was that it took too long to be proposed and developed that by the time it would have seen service jet technology had caught up.
 
If only heads had been banged together a little harder a little earlier. So for example, we have the Bucaneer so let's not go with TSR2, and instead RAF (and the RN) get souped up Buccy 3 (saves a big wedge of cash)

SR177 is proceeded with so no Phantoms now. Alternatively lightning is developed post T8 and the VG Lightning sees daylight. Oh and as for F155 let's support the Avro Arrow instead. As regards bombers go Poffler and maybe Bombcorde...agree that Fairy delta 2 is a sexy beast, but it's one or the other...(and I like the Arrow/SR155)
 
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