Failed Counter Reformation

JJohnson

Banned
Let's say that after the Thirty Years' War, that Bavaria, Austria-Hungary, Salzburg, Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Bohemia, Carniola, Lothringen, Jülich, Köln, Würzburg, Speyer, Bamberg, Sulzbach, Westphalia, and several other small states failed to return to Catholicism. Basically, all the striped lands on this map, stay Protestant.

What would the effects be in those lands, and then for Catholicism in reaction to the failed Counter-Reformation?
 
Last edited:

JJohnson

Banned
I guess you could say that. Another way to say it would be to ask how to get the Reformation to 'stick' and be permanent in most of the German-speaking nations of the era to this day. Even better would be to get it to stick in Belgium and eastern France (Lorraine, Burgundy).
 

Driftless

Donor
Even if not as sweeping as the OP, wouldn't a more Protestant set of German states make the assembly of a German nation easier and earlier? Also, wouldn't a heavier load of Protestants across the Rhine make both the French and whatever survives of the HRE very nervous?
 

JJohnson

Banned
I guess? If they were more Protestant, like this map, with an obvious minority of Catholic German states, I would think they'd be more easily unified having a common religion, and Prussia might not be the center of the German universe in Europe. Perhaps they'd be more able to focus externally with colonies earlier if their unification were taken care of earlier.

So, let's take this map of a possible extent:
a_more_protestant_holy_roman_empire_by_jjohnson1701-da6kkwc.png


And from there, posit that the Huguenots from France flee not only to the Duchy of Prussia, but east into the Spanish Netherlands, Rhineland, Alsace, Lorraine, and down into Tirol and Bavaria, further cementing the Protestant tradition. They assimilated into their host countries rather easily from the history books, but that also might help solidify the Protestantism of the region.
 
I guess? If they were more Protestant, like this map, with an obvious minority of Catholic German states, I would think they'd be more easily unified having a common religion, and Prussia might not be the center of the German universe in Europe. Perhaps they'd be more able to focus externally with colonies earlier if their unification were taken care of earlier.

So, let's take this map of a possible extent:

And from there, posit that the Huguenots from France flee not only to the Duchy of Prussia, but east into the Spanish Netherlands, Rhineland, Alsace, Lorraine, and down into Tirol and Bavaria, further cementing the Protestant tradition. They assimilated into their host countries rather easily from the history books, but that also might help solidify the Protestantism of the region.
What exactly is the date of that picture, because the situation in the Netherlands is quite unusual, or more correctly completely wrong. Either Dutch Brabant should not be protestant, or parts of Flanders should be. It makes me doubt the validity of the entire map.

BTW a failed contra reformation might be interesting for the Netherlands too. Maybe the catholic parts (like Dutch Brabant, Limburg, Twente and several other parts of the Netherlands might turn protestant this way. Maybe even larger parts of the Southern Netherlands remain protestant. Probably not though, the Spanish were ruthless (and the Dutch quite tollerant).
 

JJohnson

Banned
The date is the 'eve' of the Thirty Years War, from the Wikipedia article. I'm assuming they mean 1618 or thereabouts.

That's another thing I was wondering. If we posit a failed counter-reformation, would the Spanish Netherlands, now Protestant, have more in common with the northern Netherlands, and stay in their united kingdom later? Protestantism produces interesting changes in a culture, the so-called 'Protestant work ethic' and the emphasis on individualism, liberty, etc. that make a huge difference in the British colonies and the French and Spanish colonies on the other hand.

Maybe New Holland (Brazil) works in this timeline? Maybe the German nations get their acts together and grab a few colonies they hold to this day?
 
The date is the 'eve' of the Thirty Years War, from the Wikipedia article. I'm assuming they mean 1618 or thereabouts.
I say lets completely ignore the Netherlands on that map, because it makes no sense at all. Obviously made by someone with no knowledge about Dutch history, religion or culture.

That's another thing I was wondering. If we posit a failed counter-reformation, would the Spanish Netherlands, now Protestant, have more in common with the northern Netherlands, and stay in their united kingdom later?
I think it is safe to say that the united kingdom of the Netherlands would be butterflied away, just like most 18th century history or later. Changing the religion of large parts of Europe will mean incredible changes in the political landscape. A (more) protestant southern Netherlands would mean that the Dutch republic has more interest in the southern Netherlands than OTL. They would be seen as part of the Netherlands still occupied by Catholic Spain. They will try to recapture it, possibly extending the 80-year war or trying to gain it in one of the later wars. The cultural differences between the Northern Netherlands and the southern Netherlands (well Flanders) arent that big anyway OTL. Removing the religious component would make them simply part of us. Mind you, a Catholic south would have enourmous implications for Dutch politics. I don't think the Estates would be able to ignore Brabant if it were (mostly) protestant. A good chance it would be turned into the 8th province. If Flanders was captured, they could become the 9th (or 10th, since the adition of more provinces could easily mean that Drenthe gains that status.

Protestantism produces interesting changes in a culture, the so-called 'Protestant work ethic' and the emphasis on individualism, liberty, etc. that make a huge difference in the British colonies and the French and Spanish colonies on the other hand.
I think this is simply put not true. Basicly protestant propaganda.
Maybe New Holland (Brazil) works in this timeline?
Could be, I wouldn't count on it though. It was bad management that made the Dutch lose Brasil
Maybe the German nations get their acts together and grab a few colonies they hold to this day?
Doubtful. The Germans don't have a good shoreline for colonise, are generaly too small and have more important things to worry about. Small countries with lots of potentialy hostile neighbour usualy focus on there immidiate area instead of colonies. Besides that, if they want to go colonising, why not go to the Dutch or English.
 
Protestantism produces interesting changes in a culture, the so-called 'Protestant work ethic' and the emphasis on individualism, liberty, etc.
No it doesn't. The only change is that merchants and employers no longer have to respect the numerous holidays of the Catholic church.
 
No it doesn't. The only change is that merchants and employers no longer have to respect the numerous holidays of the Catholic church.

Agreed. I think that people give too much credit to Max Weber's theory of the Protestant "work ethic", being a rather simplistic assessment to why some countries developed towards industrialism and others didn't it - which in fact resulted from a multitude of preexistint cultural, social, and especially economic and political factors that had nothing to do with religious doctrine.

LSCatilina in a very old thread had a very good post/rant by which he pointed out that this is based on false assumptions that the "Anglo-Germanic" cultural sphere (i.e. Germany, the Low Countries and Britain, and by extension the North American colonies) were the first to develop innovative enterprises that sparked the first Industrial Revolution, and supposedly due to the Protestant Reformation. Rather, there were much older developments in the Mediterranean cultural sphere that people seem to forget, which by itself diminishes the authority of Weber's theory. I doubt that the Roman Catholic creed inspired people to be less concerned with individualism and freedom.

If anything, I (personally) believe that secularism - and not any Christian religious sect - had a much important role in the overall scientific and technological European developments we witnessed in the past 300 or so years. But then, again, I myself am falling in the trap of trying to solve a very complex problem by a simple answer.
 
Top