facist spain vs nazi germany

was there ever a time where war could errupted after the surrender of france and if they did go to war what would happen.

being new i dont know where to put this so tell me if this isnt the right place
 
Yes, you put this in the right place. :)

However, I'm not so sure about how you could get Spain and Germany against each other. I know Hitler tried to get Spain to join the Axis at one point, so maybe if they formed an alliance but one of them stabbed the other in the back?
 
First off, let me welcome you to the board by assuring you that your query is in the right place. ;)

Back to your question: No, because Franco was careful to maintain genuine neutrality throughout WWII. As Hitler told an aide after futilely trying to convince Franco to join the Axis in the summer of 1940: "I'd rather have three teeth extracted than go through that again."The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe had gained invaluable combat experience in Spain. Also, Franco's SAR aircraft recovered both Axis and Allied aircrew among other things.
 
No, I don't think Spain would join the war, on any side. Remember, the war started 3 months after Spain's 3-year-long, brutal, highly destructive civil war ended. Spain was in no shape for a major war, and Franco knew it. There's no way Franco would have declared war on Nazi Germany in particular since the Germans were the reason that Franco came into power. If he was going to enter the war, he would have entered for the Axis.
 

Cook

Banned
Franco was careful to ask for more than Germany could provide as a condition for Spain entering the war on the Axis side.

That doesn’t rule out Hitler deciding to “intervene” in Spain and Portugal, to “support” more Pro-Axis members of the Spanish Regime. He and Mussolini would have loved to have closed the Straights of Gibraltar to Britain so intervention in 1940 isn’t impossible. The whole Mediterranean campaign changes then.

Spain was shattered after the civil war and would have been in no position to put up a conventional fight. There’s a section in Chuck Yeager’s Autobiography where he tells of the US government handing over barrels of oil to Spain in return for US pilots that had made it to Franco’s Spain from France. Any country that short of oil isn’t going to be able to fight long.

But Spain has a long tradition of fighting guerrilla wars against invaders; in fact they invented the term. A weeping sore like Yugoslavia would be the result, with an early invasion along the Atlantic Coast by the Allies in 1942 a definite possibility.
 
The only possibility is an unilateral german declaration of war. Franco was a son of the bitch, but not a fool. If Germany declares war, It could make explode the brain of a lot people, specially in the spanish communist party and in fascist Italy, for different reasons. But I can't see why Hitler would decide to invade Spain. Anywy, if he does that, it would be an easy task, Spain was not in conditions to wage a new war.

Back to your question: No, because Franco was careful to maintain genuine neutrality throughout WWII. As Hitler told an aide after futilely trying to convince Franco to join the Axis in the summer of 1940: "I'd rather have three teeth extracted than go through that again."The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe had gained invaluable combat experience in Spain. Also, Franco's SAR aircraft recovered both Axis and Allied aircrew among other things.

Well, if for genuine neutrality you mean sending "volunteers" to fight in the eastern front, declaring things like "if the bolsheviks arrive to Berlin, one million of spanish ballonets will defend the city", having as foreing minister a pro-german falangist or being the main supplier of wolfram to Nazi Germany, yes he was a genuine neutral.

Probably your point is that he was very careful trying not to alienate too much the western allies, specially because the supplies from britain were vital for Spain at the time and he feared an allied invasion if the Axis was defeated. But that's not neutrality, is convenience, and non beligerancy. Of course, as the man of principles and high morals he was, he changed progessively his attitude along the course of the war changed.


But Spain has a long tradition of fighting guerrilla wars against invaders; in fact they invented the term. A weeping sore like Yugoslavia would be the result, with an early invasion along the Atlantic Coast by the Allies in 1942 a definite possibility.

Yes, but at the time the spanish people was to tired of violence, and very scared about the horros of the Civil War. Even nowadays, the people who lived the war, as my grandmother, is still tired and horrified about what happened then.
 
Last edited:
My joint tl with Red Failure before Moscow depicted a scenario where Franco joined the allies. Essentially the Russians curbstomped the Germans two years ahead of schedule and desperate for experienced formations, the allies whored themselves out to Franco (giving generous economic assisstance and kitting out 12 of his divisions to fight against Germany)
 

Cook

Banned
Yes, but at the time the spanish people was to tired of violence, and very scared about the horros of the Civil War. Even nowadays, the people who lived the war, as my grandmother, is still tired and horrified about what happened then.

Absolutely, but there’s nothing like having the neighbours storm in with tanks and jackboots to inspire someone to make a little extra effort to kick him in the shins, especially once the reprisals start and the OSS parachute in to assist with the tricky explosives.

Or they wait until the Allies land on the coast and then start a general uprising behind German lines.
 
Absolutely, but there’s nothing like having the neighbours storm in with tanks and jackboots to inspire someone to make a little extra effort to kick him in the shins, especially once the reprisals start and the OSS parachute in to assist with the tricky explosives.

Or they wait until the Allies land on the coast and then start a general uprising behind German lines.

I would agree woth you if the Spanish Civil War would have been a "regular" war. Usually the foreigners (it's not a critic, I have the same problem with conflicts in other countries) don't catch the psycological effects of the SCW on the people, probably because they have not acces to "first hand" memories and its sentimental charge. Sometimes there is also a certain romantization of the SCW. But when people see how his father is took prisioner in a night raid in his home, killed at the dawn and after that, someone, known by the familly, pisses over the corps saying (rough translation) "fuck you, pig" or when someone sees who someone takes his own brother, with different political views, and throw him over a cliff in a massive execution, they associate war with terrible things and they try to avoid it by all means.

That is one of the reasons why the guerrilla movements (the maquis) had not success nor support in post-war Spain. There were probably millions of republicans who couldn't leave the country after the war. Many of them spent decades having a low profile in the better cases or hidden in their houses à la Anna Frank in the worst cases, simply because they were too scared and too tired to fight more time. We call it "the inner exile". That's also the reason why everyone in Spain stayed at home during the attempted coup d'etat in 1981...

In the case of german invasion, there would be also a political problem. I don't know if the francoists and the remained republicans could find a way to work together against the nazis, with the wounds of the war still open. Also, probably the mos extreme factions in he francoist side, like the falangists, probably would be collaborators...

Sorry for the "rough" response, but I don't find another way to make clear my point.
 
Last edited:

Cook

Banned
I would agree woth you if the Spanish Civil War would have been a "regular" war. Usually the foreigners (it's not a critic, I have the same problem with conflicts in other countries) don't catch the psycological effects of the SCW on the people, probably because they have not acces to "first hand" memories and its sentimental charge. Sometimes there is also a certain romantization of the SCW. But when people see how his father is took prisioner in a night raid in his home, killed at the dawn and after that, someone, known by the familly, pisses over the corps saying (rough translation) "fuck you, pig" or when someone sees who someone takes his own brother, with different political views, and throw him over a cliff in a massive execution, they associate war with terrible things and they try to avoid it by all means.

That is one of the reasons why the guerrilla movements (the maquis) had not success nor support in post-war Spain. There were probably millions of republicans who couldn't leave the country after the war. Many of them spent decades having a low profile in the better cases or hidden in their houses à la Anna Frank in the worst cases, simply because they were too scared and too tired to fight more time. We call it "the inner exile". That's also the reason why everyone in Spain stayed at home during the attempted coup d'etat in 1981...

In the case of german invasion, there would be also a political problem. I don't know if the francoists and the remained republicans could find a way to work together against the nazis, with the wounds of the war still open. Also, probably the mos extreme factions in he francoist side, like the falangists, probably would be collaborators...

Sorry for the "rough" response, but I don't find another way to make clear my point.

No, that’s fine and I agree with you that the country was totally shattered after the Civil War and in no mood for a fight, but they wouldn’t necessarily have a choice.

Hence my reference to Yugoslavia. The Germans would have rolled in, probably facing minimal opposition and taken the country in a matter of a few weeks.

They’d have installed a puppet regime to replace Franco; there was always some scummy individual willing to play along regardless of how unpopular the invaders are.

Then either the country generally puts up with the occupation, with small amounts of resistance in remote parts and waits for the Allied landings before rebelling (like France), or various partisan armies form and spend half their time fighting the German occupation and half fighting their rivals (like Yugoslavia).

I don’t see a scenario where Franco’s Spain allies with the Axis, but I do see one where the Axis invites itself to the party.
 

Goldstein

Banned
But I can't see why Hitler would decide to invade Spain. Anywy, if he does that, it would be an easy task, Spain was not in conditions to wage a new war.

While I agree with the second part (and Cook's Yugoslavian analogy, to an extent), I actually do see why Hitler would want to invade Francoist Spain, and I'm actually surprised that, being Spanish myself, I never really thought about the possibility.

IMO, this is even more reasonable than Hitler declaring war after a Republican Spanish victory. Why? Because we know that he was originally uninterested about Spain, but after his meetings with Franco, he grew to hate the clericalism of his regime. In his personal diaries, Hitler bitterly mocked Franco's wife for she used to attend mass every day, and he toyed with the idea of removing him from power, and setting a pure Falangist regime that, in his very own words, "washed away the clerical-monarchist filth that rules Madrid"

He also toyed with, I'm-not-fucking-making-this-up, giving help to the CNT as, again quoting his words, "they are not red on our perspective". Not that I see the old anarch guard collaborating with the Nazis in a good mood, of course, but I think that illustrates very well Hitler's mentality.

Let's go back to the early Francoist Spain. The regime itself could be seen as the second most convoluted system in the history of mankind, right after Peronism. I like the term "clerical fascism" because it sums it up very well, but the regime itself was never a monolithic doctrine, and it was very factionalized in the early years... it only worked out because every faction (the monarchists, the Falangists, the Carlists) but the most strategic ones (the Church, the Army) were equally backstabbed by Franco. But, to sum it up, in the early years, the Falangists were seen as a very uncomfortable force within the regime, and OTL they ended up merged with the Carlists (let's talk about ASBs... they hated each other to death, sometimes literally) and relegated to juvenile activities and seminars for housewives.

Now let's go back to the topic. Let's say now that Franco is even more uncalled-for in his negotiations with Hitler, so he just feels even more disgusted about Franco, decides he cannot stand it, and declares war to Spain. As said, it would be easy to invade, though I could see some (minor) partisan activity. To sum it up, it would be a Falange-wank, and the monarchists would be the ones in a silent exile now. And of course, this would make the tide to turn more violently (now the German would have bitten more than they could chew).

As for Spain, IMO it would result in an earlier monarchical restoration under Juan III... with the Falange illegallized and retaliated against. Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...
 
Last edited:
being new i dont know where to put this so tell me if this isnt the right place


frieza,

What do you mean by "new"?

You've been here since February, you've started 11 threads one of which garnered over 60 replies, you've posted over 70 times, but now you aren't sure whether a post-1900 question belongs in the post-1900 forum?

Are you fishing for responses or something?


Bill
 

kenmac

Banned
While I agree with the second part (and Cook's Yugoslavian analogy, to an extent), I actually do see why Hitler would want to invade Francoist Spain, and I'm actually surprised that, being Spanish myself, I never really thought about the possibility.

IMO, this is even more reasonable than Hitler declaring war after a Republican Spanish victory. Why? Because we know that he was originally uninterested about Spain, but after his meetings with Franco, he grew to hate the clericalism of his regime. In his personal diaries, Hitler bitterly mocked Franco's wife for she used to attend mass every day, and he toyed with the idea of removing him from power, and setting a pure Falangist regime that, in his very own words, "washed away the clerical-monarchist filth that rules Madrid"

He also toyed with, I'm-not-fucking-making-this-up, giving help to the CNT as, again quoting his words, "they are not red on our perspective". Not that I see the old anarch guard collaborating with the Nazis in a good mood, of course, but I think that illustrates very well Hitler's mentality.

Let's go back to the early Francoist Spain. The regime itself could be seen as the second most convoluted system in the history of mankind, right after Peronism. I like the term "clerical fascism" because it sums it up very well, but the regime itself was never a monolithic doctrine, and it was very factionalized in the early years... it only worked out because every faction (the monarchists, the Falangists, the Carlists) but the most strategic ones (the Church, the Army) were equally backstabbed by Franco. But, to sum it up, in the early years, the Falangists were seen as a very uncomfortable force within the regime, and OTL they ended up merged with the Carlists (let's talk about ASBs... they hated each other to death, sometimes literally) and relegated to juvenile activities and seminars for housewives.

Now let's go back to the topic. Let's say now that Franco is even more uncalled-for in his negotiations with Hitler, so he just feels even more disgusted about Franco, decides he cannot stand it, and declares war to Spain. As said, it would be easy to invade, though I could see some (minor) partisan activity. To sum it up, it would be a Falange-wank, and the monarchists would be the ones in a silent exile now. And of course, this would make the tide to turn more violently (now the German would have bitten more than they could chew).

As for Spain, IMO it would result in an earlier monarchical restoration under Juan III... with the Falange illegallized and retaliated against. Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...

I can see National Socialist republics of Catalonia, Eskudi, Galicia, etc.
 

kenmac

Banned
While I agree with the second part (and Cook's Yugoslavian analogy, to an extent), I actually do see why Hitler would want to invade Francoist Spain, and I'm actually surprised that, being Spanish myself, I never really thought about the possibility.

IMO, this is even more reasonable than Hitler declaring war after a Republican Spanish victory. Why? Because we know that he was originally uninterested about Spain, but after his meetings with Franco, he grew to hate the clericalism of his regime. In his personal diaries, Hitler bitterly mocked Franco's wife for she used to attend mass every day, and he toyed with the idea of removing him from power, and setting a pure Falangist regime that, in his very own words, "washed away the clerical-monarchist filth that rules Madrid"

He also toyed with, I'm-not-fucking-making-this-up, giving help to the CNT as, again quoting his words, "they are not red on our perspective". Not that I see the old anarch guard collaborating with the Nazis in a good mood, of course, but I think that illustrates very well Hitler's mentality.

Let's go back to the early Francoist Spain. The regime itself could be seen as the second most convoluted system in the history of mankind, right after Peronism. I like the term "clerical fascism" because it sums it up very well, but the regime itself was never a monolithic doctrine, and it was very factionalized in the early years... it only worked out because every faction (the monarchists, the Falangists, the Carlists) but the most strategic ones (the Church, the Army) were equally backstabbed by Franco. But, to sum it up, in the early years, the Falangists were seen as a very uncomfortable force within the regime, and OTL they ended up merged with the Carlists (let's talk about ASBs... they hated each other to death, sometimes literally) and relegated to juvenile activities and seminars for housewives.

Now let's go back to the topic. Let's say now that Franco is even more uncalled-for in his negotiations with Hitler, so he just feels even more disgusted about Franco, decides he cannot stand it, and declares war to Spain. As said, it would be easy to invade, though I could see some (minor) partisan activity. To sum it up, it would be a Falange-wank, and the monarchists would be the ones in a silent exile now. And of course, this would make the tide to turn more violently (now the German would have bitten more than they could chew).

As for Spain, IMO it would result in an earlier monarchical restoration under Juan III... with the Falange illegallized and retaliated against. Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...

Certain Falange members had a pop at killing Franco.
He betrayed the revolution.
 
While I agree with the second part (and Cook's Yugoslavian analogy, to an extent), I actually do see why Hitler would want to invade Francoist Spain, and I'm actually surprised that, being Spanish myself, I never really thought about the possibility.

IMO, this is even more reasonable than Hitler declaring war after a Republican Spanish victory. Why? Because we know that he was originally uninterested about Spain, but after his meetings with Franco, he grew to hate the clericalism of his regime. In his personal diaries, Hitler bitterly mocked Franco's wife for she used to attend mass every day, and he toyed with the idea of removing him from power, and setting a pure Falangist regime that, in his very own words, "washed away the clerical-monarchist filth that rules Madrid"

He also toyed with, I'm-not-fucking-making-this-up, giving help to the CNT as, again quoting his words, "they are not red on our perspective". Not that I see the old anarch guard collaborating with the Nazis in a good mood, of course, but I think that illustrates very well Hitler's mentality.

Let's go back to the early Francoist Spain. The regime itself could be seen as the second most convoluted system in the history of mankind, right after Peronism. I like the term "clerical fascism" because it sums it up very well, but the regime itself was never a monolithic doctrine, and it was very factionalized in the early years... it only worked out because every faction (the monarchists, the Falangists, the Carlists) but the most strategic ones (the Church, the Army) were equally backstabbed by Franco. But, to sum it up, in the early years, the Falangists were seen as a very uncomfortable force within the regime, and OTL they ended up merged with the Carlists (let's talk about ASBs... they hated each other to death, sometimes literally) and relegated to juvenile activities and seminars for housewives.

Now let's go back to the topic. Let's say now that Franco is even more uncalled-for in his negotiations with Hitler, so he just feels even more disgusted about Franco, decides he cannot stand it, and declares war to Spain. As said, it would be easy to invade, though I could see some (minor) partisan activity. To sum it up, it would be a Falange-wank, and the monarchists would be the ones in a silent exile now. And of course, this would make the tide to turn more violently (now the German would have bitten more than they could chew).

As for Spain, IMO it would result in an earlier monarchical restoration under Juan III... with the Falange illegallized and retaliated against. Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...

Interesting, I didn't know that Hitler had so bad impression about francoist clericalism (I can understand his comtempt towards "la collares"). So, we have a reason.

But still, there are political problems that Hitler should evaluate before attacking Spain. It would alienate the church and probably a lot of catholic germans. Also it would create inquietude in Italy and maybe other fascist countries. Thus, the political capital spent could surpass the gains of conquering of Spain. But well, he often didn't bother about the consequences, so your scenario is still feasible.

On the other hand, and a bit off topic, it's interesting the point about the CNT. Also Primo de Rivera showed some sympathy for them. So, despite they hatred the fascism, the fascism liked them. It's Sorel's common heritage, I guess.

I can see National Socialist republics of Catalonia, Eskudi, Galicia, etc.

No if they want the support of Falange... But wait, Dr. Strangelove has found a way to compatibilize both options.
 
Aguirre, the Basque regional president, and the PNV made an attempt to convince Hitler to grant their independence and create a basque state. Maybe if he sees an advantage on that...

Or probably if a conflict erupts between Mussolini and Hitler on Austria (before September '39) and Franco sides with Mussolini...
 
Franco kept the Germans minimally happy through trade, rhetoric and the Condor division. But Franco knew that if he joined the Axis, the Brits would seize the Canary Islands and he would also lose Spanish Morocco forever. He also knews that within a week the Spanish navy would cease to exist. I also suspect that he was intelligent enough to know that America would enter the war and that Hitler was doomed.

U.S. and British diplomats worked skillfully in Madrid, and Franco undoubtedly was impressed by Britain's sinking of the French fleet in North Africa (1940) and by its routing of the Italians when they tried to invade North Africa and by the swift seizure of Italy's East African empire (1940-42). Once the Allies invaded Vichy North Africa, there was no possibility that Franco would join the Axis.

Franco's fascism was rooted in anti-communism. He knew that the western Allies were not communists and that Churchill had a history as an especially staunch anti-communist.
 
I also suspect that he was intelligent enough to know that America would enter the war and that Hitler was doomed.

.

Although I agree with most of your post, you are wrong here.

Discourse in the opening session of the National Movement's Council (Consejo Nacional del Movimeinto), 17th of July, 1942:

Originally Posted by Francisco Franco Bahamonde

The war in our continent has been clear and decided long time ago (...) the american continent can't dream with an intervention in Europe without facing a catastrophe(...) The fight between both continents is imposible. It would only mean the war in the sea, long and without achievements (...) The war has had a bad planning and the Allies have lost.
 
Top