F-8s on the Ark Royal?

I once saw the maths re the E1 Tracer/F8 AEW fighter combo and they couldn't detect and intercept a Tu 16 or Tu22 (I can't remember which, but it wasn't the Tu22M) before it laucnched its missiles. The F4 could, it was faster and more persistant and could attack head-on from longer ranges. So while the F8 was great as a day fighter the main role of the FAA was shooting down Soviet bombers and the F4 was way better at that.
 
Oh, don't let Mann see that. He'll turn this into an Aardvark lovefest so fast... :D

Oh no I won't. You see, I know what the Aardvark was built for, and it wasn't fighter duties. It's a strike plane. And the Brits already had the Bucc, and were building the TSR.2. They didn't need the F-111, and if a F-111 was gonna carry air to air missiles, it was for self-defense. And yes, McNamara was a dumbass.

As far as the F-8 goes, the previous posters said it well. It was not as good as the F-4, and while I do suppose that fixing its electronics could be done, it's probably cheaper and more effective to just go with the flying brick.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I once saw the maths re the E1 Tracer/F8 AEW fighter combo and they couldn't detect and intercept a Tu 16 or Tu22 (I can't remember which, but it wasn't the Tu22M) before it laucnched its missiles. The F4 could, it was faster and more persistant and could attack head-on from longer ranges. So while the F8 was great as a day fighter the main role of the FAA was shooting down Soviet bombers and the F4 was way better at that.

I think, though, that when you look at it in 20/20 hindsight it might have been a moot point. We've got to remember that in the end, 99 percent of the Cold War interceptors weren't ever used like that.

So while the RN would probably rather have Phantoms, the jobs they ended up doing could be done with the Crusaders.
 
I think, though, that when you look at it in 20/20 hindsight it might have been a moot point. We've got to remember that in the end, 99 percent of the Cold War interceptors weren't ever used like that.

So while the RN would probably rather have Phantoms, the jobs they ended up doing could be done with the Crusaders.

One of the ideas I had was perhaps a dedicated RN Crusader, with the Spey engines, and if the Ark Royal lasts long enough, perhaps the Blue Vixen radar, or gear from the British or American fighters of the time.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
One of the ideas I had was perhaps a dedicated RN Crusader, with the Spey engines, and if the Ark Royal lasts long enough, perhaps the Blue Vixen radar, or gear from the British or American fighters of the time.

The odd thing here is that if the Aeronavale still takes it, then the Crusader automatically gets this second life as an export carrier fighter. And even though that's a very specific and odd niche, it might give Vought a few more years as well.

I wonder if one of those things could get flung off the Hermes/Vikrant...
 
Or the Centaur, we should have picked that ship up in the 60s.

Or HMCS Bonaventure, NAeL Minas Gerais or ARA Veintincinco de Mayo for that matter......could have a bunch of interesting effects on a number of countries and their carrier aviation programs.
 
TM: the Bonnie could barely handle (US Banshee pilots refused to conduct joint ops due to the uber-narrow margins for trapping) 1st generation jets, let alone 1960s/70s era types.
 
Ah, but can the Crusader get onto one of these little ships, even the Minas Gerias with its 8 degree deck angle could only do 24kts? The RAN considered the Melbourne too slow to launch Skyhawks fully loaded at 24kts, as did the Argies with their Etenards.
 
Could not the Crusaders have been guided by Gannet AEW aircraft, thereby allowing them to use Sparrow (or derivative?) bvr? Much the same as Lightning's and MiGs were often guided by proxy radar due to these shortcomings.

Not too hot on old aircraft technology & missiles etc., but recall the French fitted the F8 for R530s, which were bigger missiles, so maybe 2 Sparrows/Skyflash would be doable.
 
What about the SARH Sidewinder variant that I've read about in Mig Master?

Or fit them with updated Red Top missiles, as used by Lightnings.


I can't really see the F8 as a contender for many of the reasons outlined, unless the number of F8s vs F4s that could be embarked were far greater (which I'd doubt) to improve sortie rates to counter their deficiency in radar and armament: F4s had better radar, better weapons, more scope for modernisation, longer range. (And numbers of missiles carried was important, given the poor kill ratio of the then radar-guided missiles: can't really just do with two of them, even if used just to scatter an approaching formation before zooming back on them to fire off close-range AAMs.)

And, politics/economics aside, I think the Buccanneer was a superior maritime strike aircraft to the A7 Corsair (which was very good in its own right), given the role the RN earmarked for it, so I can't imagine the RN going for second best in fighter and strike carrier aircraft for a marginal increase in air complement.
 
Or fit them with updated Red Top missiles, as used by Lightnings.


I can't really see the F8 as a contender for many of the reasons outlined, unless the number of F8s vs F4s that could be embarked were far greater (which I'd doubt) to improve sortie rates to counter their deficiency in radar and armament: F4s had better radar, better weapons, more scope for modernisation, longer range. (And numbers of missiles carried was important, given the poor kill ratio of the then radar-guided missiles: can't really just do with two of them, even if used just to scatter an approaching formation before zooming back on them to fire off close-range AAMs.)

And, politics/economics aside, I think the Buccanneer was a superior maritime strike aircraft to the A7 Corsair (which was very good in its own right), given the role the RN earmarked for it, so I can't imagine the RN going for second best in fighter and strike carrier aircraft for a marginal increase in air complement.

I agree with these, Fell. Where I'm going though, is the idea of improving the breed, so to speak. Britain bought the Phantom in 1969, and operated it from Ark Royal and Eagle. What I'm thinking is that Britain takes the design of the F-8, uses the supercritical wing design NASA had at the time, and fits it with the radar from the F-4 and Rolls-Royce Spey engines. The resulting aircraft is longer-ranged than the J79 Phantom (or EE Lightning), and considerably more maneuverable. Wingtip AAMs are possible, and you count mount weapons under the wings, which the Crusader I don't think ever did.
 
F-8E's (F8U-2NE) could carry six bombs, or Bullpup AGMs under the wings on a single pylon in the middle of the wing.
 
Margaret Thatcher buying non-US or British aircraft from Giscard, a man who publicly patronized her to the point of being a pompous asshole? I'd like some of that substance you're smoking. ;) Seriously though, Thatcher won't go for French aircraft. I think the Westland affair made that quite clear. Rhinos were quite temperamental for the Ark: they barely were capable of traps and launches fully loaded.

It was the Wilson government that bought the F-4K/M, Maggie had nothing to do with it. She wasn't even in the Shadow Cabinet at the time.
This is the first time I've heard of the RN having trouble with it's Phantoms. I believe there was a British version of the Crusader mooted.
 
There was? Everything I've read about the F-8 makes no mention of the Brits, except to say how the F8U-1 (F-8A) embarrased their Canberra bombers in NATO wargames held in the Med.
 
Or the Centaur, we should have picked that ship up in the 60s.

Or HMCS Bonaventure, NAeL Minas Gerais or ARA Veintincinco de Mayo for that matter......could have a bunch of interesting effects on a number of countries and their carrier aviation programs.

TM: the Bonnie could barely handle (US Banshee pilots refused to conduct joint ops due to the uber-narrow margins for trapping) 1st generation jets, let alone 1960s/70s era types.

The slow speed of the assorted Colossus & Majestic carriers operated all over would have made it difficult to operate a lot of aircraft, and most operators relied on hopped-up A-4s with Sidewinders for air defense (very maneuverable, excellent thrust-to-weight ration), using them as point interceptors under radar control. However, I think that the French mod of the Crusader could probably operate from a properly modernized Centaur as those were about the same size & speed as Foch & Clemenceau.

… And, politics/economics aside, I think the Buccanneer was a superior maritime strike aircraft to the A7 Corsair (which was very good in its own right), given the role the RN earmarked for it, so I can't imagine the RN going for second best in fighter and strike carrier aircraft for a marginal increase in air complement.

The A-7 was never intended for the sort of strike missions assigned to the Buccaneer or the A-6, which had the same role in the USN but took a rather different approach to the task; rather it was intended as a replacement for the A-4 as a light attack aircraft.

I agree with these, Fell. Where I'm going though, is the idea of improving the breed,

so to speak. Britain bought the Phantom in 1969, and operated it from Ark Royal and Eagle. What I'm thinking is that Britain takes the design of the F-8, uses the supercritical wing design NASA had at the time, and fits it with the radar from the F-4 and Rolls-Royce Spey engines. The resulting aircraft is longer-ranged than the J79 Phantom (or EE Lightning), and considerably more maneuverable. Wingtip AAMs are possible, and you count mount weapons under the wings, which the Crusader I don't think ever did.

I don't think that fitting the F-4's radar in a Crusader would work, as the F-8 only had a very tiny space for its radar to fit (that little pointy bit sticking out in front of the air intake), and IIRC, one of the reasons that the USN rejected improved versions of the F-8 despite the promise of phenomenal performance and retired the existing fleet from front-line duties was that it was simply impossible to fit the airframe with the sort of powerful radars required by the fleet defense mission, regardless of what type of AWACS plane was supporting it.
 
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