F-5 idea copied by Yugoslavia and Romania instead of the Jaguar idea?

[tomo pauk]

In other words, cooperation between Soko and IAR results in a lighter, sleeker and smaller low-wing A/C, rather than in bigger, draggier and heavier high-wing type.
One GSh-23 cannon instead of two, the bomb/rockets payload capability should've remained the same. Erstwhile with 2x 4000 lb Vipers, later with reheat (5000 lb).
Possible upgrades before 1990-91? French or Soviet/Russian engine connection for a major upgrade? Export possibilities? Post-1990s developments?

(note that Orao/Vultur was also with a relatively thick wing - 8% t-tc at root, vs. 4.5-5% t-t-c at root as on the Jaguar and on F-5; Jaguar's wing was also outfitted with elaborate set of high-lift devices, that Orao lacked)

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

So, like the IAR-95? or the twin engine IAR S?

 

[tomo pauk]

So, like the IAR-95? or the twin engine IAR S?

IAR-95 was a bigger aircraft than the IAR-93/Orao. I've suggested the opposite - a smaller aircraft than the -93 to be built instead of it.
I'm not familiar with IAR S.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

IAR-95 was a bigger aircraft than the IAR-93/Orao. I've suggested the opposite - a smaller aircraft than the -93 to be built instead of it.
I'm not familiar with IAR S.

Spoiler: spoiler

It was part of the IAR 95 project where they studied different variants/configurations of which the IAR S (that also had some subvariants) was part of.

Anyway. I think I found what you are looking for, though, it is more modern than your Socialist period requirement, however, I think this is similar to what they could cook up.

INCAS did a study in 2016-2017 about a micro-fighter.

Spoiler: INCAS fighter studies

This is from this document.

 

[tomo pauk]

Anyway. I think I found what you are looking for, though, it is more modern than your Socialist period requirement, however, I think this is similar to what they could cook up.

Thank you very much for those aircraft designs.

I am looking for an F-5A equivalent initially, plain and simple. Unlike the Orao as-is, it would've provided supersonic performance (not too fast, talk 1.3-1.5 mach, but still much faster than the Orao) within the capabilities of Yugoslav and Romanian industries. Basic electronics (Yugoslavs might've gotten their hands on French and/or Swedish kit, along with Soviet/Russian/indigenous stuff; Romanians can try to shoehorn whatever from MiG 21 that can fit, and later deal with the French and/or Israelis). Tip launchers can be incorporated either from the start or later.
Aircraft of similar generation and electronics often cost by the kilogram, so it would've also been cheaper. Also better fuel mileage - a big deal for both (fragile) economies in 1980s and later.

 

[tomo pauk]

The 'Balkan F-5' gets Yugoslavia one step closer to the 'YU Supersonic' plan materializing. 1st by installing the re-heated Vipers, while in the meantime the idea of RD-33 can be mooted.
French influence was obvious on the historical 'supersonic' (Novi Avion) - it looks like an 1-engined small Rafale after it looked like Grippen at 1st - along their electronics and AA missiles, they were probably trying sell the M88 engine, too.
Granted, all of this can come to a swift end by 1991, so the reheated Viper is probably the best bet.

Romanians might have a better chance here.

 

[Monk78]

Why shouldn’t they just license produce the mig21Bis ?

 

[tomo pauk]

Why shouldn’t they just license produce the mig21Bis ?

In OTL or here?

 

[Monk78]

In OTL or here?

Here in this TL

 

[tomo pauk]

Here in this TL

Desire to develop their own industry, and desire to not be mere extension to the Soviets wrt. military aircraft. Lessons of 1948, 1956 and 1968 were allso still fresh back then.
Same reasons were probably present in the OTL.

 

[Hamurabi]

I wonder how light fighter with 2 Bristol orphues engines 5000lb dry thrust.
A lot of potential

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Can a viper even reliably do super sonic flight? IIRC the SR.53 was primarily a rocket driven plane.

 

[tomo pauk]

I wonder how light fighter with 2 Bristol orphues engines 5000lb dry thrust.
A lot of potential

Orpheus probably desreves it's own thread, considering the potential of the engine; it even served as a part donnor for the Pegasus. Eg. afterburning version, turbofan version (talk 'thin Pegasus') with or without reheat - better watch out, you F-404, RB.199 and RD.33
Original engine was very compact and light, and was not using too much of fuel, and was making good power for that size and weight. Indian Marut used two of them, unfortunately it was not a performer.
From Yugoslav point of view, Viper was a better choice since it was produced domestically, and UK had no problems with Romanians using it.

 

[tomo pauk]

Can a viper even reliably do super sonic flight? IIRC the SR.53 was primarily a rocket driven plane.

Americans managed to do that with the very similar J85 engine family.
For the Yugo-Romanian copy of the F-5, the 5000 lb afterburning Viper is a close match to the J85-21. Viper was with a 4 in greater diameter, though. Seems like the Viper have had about 15% more favorable fuel consumption in max dry thrust.
The non-A/B Vipers went up to 4400 lb (Yugoslavia was making the 4000 lb non-A/B version), again compares well with early afterburning J85s.

 

[Monk78]

They can get a F-5 from Libya they had surplus ones but A/B

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

They can get a F-5 from Libya they had surplus ones but A/B

The US may even be willing to supply Tito with F5's in an attempt to further separate Yugoslavia from the Eastern Block. If memory serves they supplied him with Sabres.

 

[Monk78]

The US may even be willing to supply Tito with F5's in an attempt to further separate Yugoslavia from the Eastern Block. If memory serves they supplied him with Sabres.

Yes and F-84 as well

 

[Uruk]

The F-5 was offered to Yugoslavia as a F-84/86 replacement

 

[Eric C Johnson]

They can get a F-5 from Libya they had surplus ones but A/B

The Libyan Air Force acquired eight F-5A and two F-5B in mid-1968 (flown to Libya in 1969) before US assistance was cut off after expulsion from Wheelus Air Force Base. Another eight F-5A, significant spare parts and training assistance were a part of a US$40 million contract signed in June 1969, of which the Libyans paid US$22 million before contact was cancelled by US. Reportedly 5 F-5A and two F-5B were loaned to Pakistan in December 1971 and used for training; before eventual transfer to Turkey in the summer of 1975.
My question is whether this TL is prior to December 1971, and whether the aircraft numbers make acquisition worthwhile?