F - 4's for SAAF

[La Rouge Beret]

I have been reading about the Angolan Bush War and one of the points that seems to keep cropping up is that towards the end of the conflict that the air defences in Angola were incredibly sophisticated.

My question is if the SAAF had access to F - 4 E Phantoms and the means to repair and re provision them, how would they have performed in the environment?

Alternatively were the modified Mirage III's and F - 1's from OTL superior to the F - 4E in this environment?

 

[Cook]

The South Africans didn't get involved in Angola until after the Vietnam War had ended; presumably they would have benefited considerably from Wild Weasel aircraft, tactics and weapons.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The South Africans didn't get involved in Angola until after the Vietnam War had ended; presumably they would have benefited considerably from Wild Weasel aircraft, tactics and weapons.

That echoes my thoughts, plus it would seem to offer another avenue for further cooperation with the IDF. For some unknown reason the idea of F - 4 Phantoms in South Africa has piqued my interest!

 

[Delta Force]

21 nations operated the Mirage III, only 12 operated the F-4 Phantom. South Africa would have a more difficult time getting around arms embargoes with the Phantom because there would be less sources for spare parts and/or equipment upgrades and replacements. Phantom operators were also close to the United States and vulnerable to diplomatic pressure, while France was and is notoriously willing to supply almost anyone able to pay when it comes to arms sales.

 

[Uruk]

21 nations operated the Mirage III, only 12 operated the F-4 Phantom. South Africa would have a more difficult time getting around arms embargoes with the Phantom because there would be less sources for spare parts and/or equipment upgrades and replacements. Phantom operators were also close to the United States and vulnerable to diplomatic pressure, while France was and is notoriously willing to supply almost anyone able to pay when it comes to arms sales.

Spare parts would be easy to come by for the SAAF thanks to the close RSA-Israeli relations there is no way a US administration would cut off Israel from spare parts

 

[La Rouge Beret]

I was thinking about purchasing F - 4's from the Islamic Republic for the South African Air Force.

Regardless of how they were procured, would operations conducted by the SAAF be more effective because of the payload offered by the Phantom? Would the SAAF be able to operate the type at its maximum potential noting the arms embargo?

 

[Simon]

21 nations operated the Mirage III, only 12 operated the F-4 Phantom.

That's not totally insurmountable, South Africa also operated a squadron of Blackburn Buccaneers and only they and the UK ever used them. They had a half-decent aerospace industry and also had access to Israel's as well via back channels which would seem like enough to at least keep them patched up and operating but not upgrade them.

 

[TheMann]

The challenging thing for the South Africans and F-4s would be the missiles for them. Israel can't supply those too easily, and while South Africa can make their own heatseekers, against Cuban MiG-21s with radar-homers they have a distinct problem, as the F-4 is not known for its maneuverability.

 

[Uruk]

The challenging thing for the South Africans and F-4s would be the missiles for them. Israel can't supply those too easily, and while South Africa can make their own heatseekers, against Cuban MiG-21s with radar-homers they have a distinct problem, as the F-4 is not known for its maneuverability.

Simply adapt them to the Python/Derby series AAM that they used OTL

 

[Crowbar Six]

The Iranians would be very reluctant to lose any of their F4's as they were some of their most capable fighter-bombers.

The SAAF did very well in Angola and managed to carry out their mission with minimal losses. I suspect they would probably have wanted more Mirage F1 and Buccaneers in preference to F4's. I don't think the US would have been happy about the Israeli's shipping F4's, AIM 7's and AIM 9's to the SAAF particularly when the US was essentially shipping them to Israel at a subsidised cost.

 

[TheMann]

Simply adapt them to the Python/Derby series AAM that they used OTL

South Africa didn't use the Derby until long after apartheid ended. Imported Sparrows would only be an option through Israel, and eventually the Americans are gonna object to that. Realistically, South Africa's options for such missiles are very limited.

 

[Uruk]

South Africa didn't use the Derby until long after apartheid ended. Imported Sparrows would only be an option through Israel, and eventually the Americans are gonna object to that. Realistically, South Africa's options for such missiles are very limited.

Actually the Python and later Derby was used by both the F-1Z and Cheetah since at least ´86 which might still be to late. Sparrows might be the best option but the SAAF was able to arm its OTL fighters so adapting the F-4 to available weaponary shouldnt be impossible

But the original question remains would the F-4 offer any advantage over the OTL Mirage fighters for the SAAF?

 

[Sulemain]

The Iranians would be very reluctant to lose any of their F4's as they were some of their most capable fighter-bombers.

The SAAF did very well in Angola and managed to carry out their mission with minimal losses. I suspect they would probably have wanted more Mirage F1 and Buccaneers in preference to F4's. I don't think the US would have been happy about the Israeli's shipping F4's, AIM 7's and AIM 9's to the SAAF particularly when the US was essentially shipping them to Israel at a subsidised cost.

Really? I was under the impression SAAF Mirage's suffered against Cuban Migs?

 

[Coiler]

Really? I was under the impression SAAF Mirage's suffered against Cuban Migs?

The SAAF lost only one aerial combat encounter with a MiG, and even then the pilot returned safely. In the whole war, direct losses amounted to only ten fixed-wing planes and nine helicopters. However, they had to fly extreme profiles to minimize losses, as every shootdown was a precious loss.

 

[AdA]

The challenging thing for the South Africans and F-4s would be the missiles for them. Israel can't supply those too easily, and while South Africa can make their own heatseekers, against Cuban MiG-21s with radar-homers they have a distinct problem, as the F-4 is not known for its maneuverability.

The Cubans operated MiG23ML with R23 and R60 missiles at later stages of the conflict. Eventually even the Mirage F1 were pulled back. Soviet post Vietnam aircraft were optimised against the F4. The SAAF would need something of a later generation to reatain its advantage.

 

[AdA]

The SAAF lost only one aerial combat encounter with a MiG, and even then the pilot returned safely. In the whole war, direct losses amounted to only ten fixed-wing planes and nine helicopters. However, they had to fly extreme profiles to minimize losses, as every shootdown was a precious loss.

Towards the end they avoid deep penetration missions and choose their battles carefully.