F-32 selected for the JSF Program.

[Riain]

I remain unconvinced, but I certainly hope so, because if otherwise, ADF-people will be hungry next 10 years while they buy F-35.

Australia is the worlds 13th largest economy and about the 13th largest defence spender. We are the global economic poster boy for avoiding the recessions of the last few years.

If you really want to know about our capacity to pay for the F35 look for news reports detailing our inability to spend billions of budgetted dollars for various reason.

 

[abc123]

Australia is the worlds 13th largest economy and about the 13th largest defence spender. We are the global economic poster boy for avoiding the recessions of the last few years.

If you really want to know about our capacity to pay for the F35 look for news reports detailing our inability to spend billions of budgetted dollars for various reason.

Oh, I believe that you can afford F-35, no question about that. But can you also afford evreything else?

 

[TheMann]

That tanker contract, even by american military contracter standards is appalling 8 fucking years; 8 and they can't produce a semi objective contract; the whole washington state zomg we will lose jobs if the tanker is built by northrup on airbus bodies was complete bullshit because Boeing has a 8-11 year backlog of production contracts... plus with their huge labor disputes (not just the SC thing either) they are going to progressively get more delays (especially if you look at the supply chain problems they always seem to have)...we use Italian pistols in the army, German sub machine guns why should buying an airbus aircraft which will be heavily modified by american companies in the US be such a big deal (US commercial airlines own plenty of air busses and they have a decent service record)

One should keep in mind that Boeing's tankers will probably not be built in Washington state, because you point out, they have a big backlog for 777 and Dreamliner orders, and well as the 747-8s ordered by Lufthansa and Korean Air. They will probably be built either at the old McDonnell Douglas plant in Long Beach, California or at Boeing's defense airplane plant in St. Louis.

As for the ideas of Australia doing what India did, the RAAF is closely linked with the Americans and NATO. There is very few cases where Russian aircraft are used by a western nation, about the only one of any consequence was the MiG-29s operated by the Luftwaffe after the reunification of Germany. India does not have such ties, and they can push far more generous contracts than a smaller air force such as Canada or Australia simply because the Indian Air Force is several times the size. As appealing as the idea of Sukhois for the RAAF looks, its not gonna happen. As far as Carlo Kopp goes, he's a moron, but even morons make good points once in a while. Australia's F-111s shouldn't have been retired - say what you like, but the ace card of the F-111 for a country like Australia is that it has ridiculously long legs, better than twice the combat radius of the Super Hornet. Some of the ideas put up on Air Power Australia, such as converting ex-airline 747s into very large tankers, are actually pretty smart. I happen to agree with him on the F-35 as well - for a large area nation like Australia or Canada with a small air force, the Lightning II is not the best choice of fighter, especially since both countries have somewhat inadequate SAR capabilities.

 

[FgenLuke]

One should keep in mind that Boeing's tankers will probably not be built in Washington state, because you point out, they have a big backlog for 777 and Dreamliner orders, and well as the 747-8s ordered by Lufthansa and Korean Air. They will probably be built either at the old McDonnell Douglas plant in Long Beach, California or at Boeing's defense airplane plant in St. Louis.

As for the ideas of Australia doing what India did, the RAAF is closely linked with the Americans and NATO. There is very few cases where Russian aircraft are used by a western nation, about the only one of any consequence was the MiG-29s operated by the Luftwaffe after the reunification of Germany. India does not have such ties, and they can push far more generous contracts than a smaller air force such as Canada or Australia simply because the Indian Air Force is several times the size. As appealing as the idea of Sukhois for the RAAF looks, its not gonna happen. As far as Carlo Kopp goes, he's a moron, but even morons make good points once in a while. Australia's F-111s shouldn't have been retired - say what you like, but the ace card of the F-111 for a country like Australia is that it has ridiculously long legs, better than twice the combat radius of the Super Hornet. Some of the ideas put up on Air Power Australia, such as converting ex-airline 747s into very large tankers, are actually pretty smart. I happen to agree with him on the F-35 as well - for a large area nation like Australia or Canada with a small air force, the Lightning II is not the best choice of fighter, especially since both countries have somewhat inadequate SAR capabilities.

Yeah what we really need is a few CF-190 Crossbow's and CF-220 Rapter's eh TheMann?

EDIT: What would you sugest we get insted of the F-35?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

One should keep in mind that Boeing's tankers will probably not be built in Washington state, because you point out, they have a big backlog for 777 and Dreamliner orders, and well as the 747-8s ordered by Lufthansa and Korean Air. They will probably be built either at the old McDonnell Douglas plant in Long Beach, California or at Boeing's defense airplane plant in St. Louis.

No, they probably will, actually.

e.g. http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/2011/02/02/boeings-new-767-line-ready-to-make-air-force-tankers/

Basically they've moved assembly lines around within the great big building, but they're not making a huge number of commercial 767s anymore, so duplicating the lines somewhere else would be inefficient.

Ah, here's another source

With the USAF deal, Boeing will be able to ramp up production to 20 aircraft a year. The 767s are built at Boeing Commercial's Everett, Seattle plant, then transferred to the manufacturer's Wichita, Kansas factory for completion and conversion to tanker mode.

 

[Ming777]

EDIT: What would you sugest we get insted of the F-35?

Not sure about TheMann, but I would pick either:

A) The Eurofighter Typhoon
B) F-15SE Silent Eagle
C) F-22 Raptors

C would only be possible if the idiots in Washington aren't so anal about the ban on exporting the plane. I'd rather have 65 Raptors than 65 one engined Diet-Raptors.

B's problem is simply the fact it just came out now and hasn't gone under full testing. Pros of the F-15SE is it comes from a line of proven aircraft and has two engines.

A is a bit expensive, but they have proven themselves to be excellent in service.

 

[TheMann]

Yeah what we really need is a few CF-190 Crossbow's and CF-220 Rapter's eh TheMann?

Yeah, but do you see any current or future Canadian government funding the development of a high-tech semi-stealth strike fighter? I don't.

EDIT: What would you sugest we get insted of the F-35?

The Raptor, at least once the US had ironed the electronic bugs out of it, would be ideal, and since in a few weeks the greenback will be worth about a third of what it is now p), it would be perfect.

Other than that, the best we could buy today for our purposes would be the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Saab Gripen is too small and short range for Canadian use and the Typhoon beats out the Super Hornet and Rafale on performance. The F-15 Silent Eagle would be a good choice, too, but its less likely due to the design age of the airplane.

 

[BlairWitch749]

Yeah, but do you see any current or future Canadian government funding the development of a high-tech semi-stealth strike fighter? I don't.



The Raptor, at least once the US had ironed the electronic bugs out of it, would be ideal, and since in a few weeks the greenback will be worth about a third of what it is now p), it would be perfect.

Other than that, the best we could buy today for our purposes would be the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Saab Gripen is too small and short range for Canadian use and the Typhoon beats out the Super Hornet and Rafale on performance. The F-15 Silent Eagle would be a good choice, too, but its less likely due to the design age of the airplane.

the silent eagle isn't proven and its cost is purely theoretical... also, as we discussed, buying from boeing means you should get your aircraft delivered well after technology has passed it by

 

[Riain]

Abc123, we can afford a lot of new stuff but we can't afford to fuck our procurement shit up, we have to pick our procurement battles carefully.

TheMann, F111s were giving everyone cancer, the USAF got around this by fluke, they hired midgets to work in the confined spaces and they died of other things before the cancers kicked in. We don't have the industry to rebuild them properly anymore anyway.

 

[Cook]

Australia's F-111s shouldn't have been retired…

TheMann, F111s were...don't have the industry to rebuild them properly anymore anyway.

The aircraft were in some cases 35 years old. Their operational life was stretched for the last years in service by severely limiting the flying hours. They just did not have any more life left in their airframes.

 

[abc123]

TheMann, F111s were giving everyone cancer, the USAF got around this by fluke, they hired midgets to work in the confined spaces and they died of other things before the cancers kicked in. We don't have the industry to rebuild them properly anymore anyway.