F-32 selected for the JSF Program.
- Thread starter ScorchedLight
- Start date
abc123
Banned
Look, I'm not against single-engined planes, there is a great nmber of them flying just fine. But, for a 200 mil USD per plane, I would expect something better than F-35. Just that.
BlairWitch749
Banned
based on cost alone, even if its performance is inferior; which even if it underperforms its brochure by 10 percent it would still be competitive it would still be a better buy than the f-35
abc123
Banned
I wouldn't be so dismissive about Carlo Kopp.
Even if he is all that you are saying, it isn't nonsence evreything he says.
About F-111, can you tell me what airplane replaced his capabilities?
i agree that it isn't right in evreything, but Carlo Kopp also isn't wrong in evreything.
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PAK FA as 5th gen?
The PAK FA is impressive to look at, and I am sure that it can perform any number of aerobatic manuvers in a controlled environment, but a superior 5th gen aircraft has to be a heck of a lot more than that to be truly competitive.
Russian avionics (particularly EW suites, the core of any modern fighter) are notorious for being unreliable and performing badly when used in real-world environments. Their radar systems make up for lack of sophistication with brute force (the MiG-25, for instance, used to use truly massive power levels to 'burn through' jamming, though it turns out that even this solution didn't work as jamming got more effective), their communications systems were insecure and vulnerable to spoofing, and their ability to conduct useful intercepts were often severely compromised by problems with true 3-D intercept solutions, often attributable to extremely poor software. As for defensive jamming, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that Russian systems even today can do very much to protect themselves in combat, a good recipe for some impromptu ejection training for their pilots in a best case scenario.
Electronics notwithstanding, Russian materials technology should be able to provide some stealthy materials for use in aircraft. Given the rather dismal experience with quality control that most Russian aircraft have demonstrated, there might be some legitimate questions as to whether or not this will actually work in practice. Once again, looking at MiG-25s and MiG-29s (not to mention the Su-27s and Su-30s that we now have been able to examine), there is little reason to be impressed with what the Russian aerospace industry can do beyond a few showpiece aircraft for demos. Airframe durability problems past about 2000 hrs have always been a problem for the Russians, and with the emphasis on highly aerobatic platforms this is only likely to get worse.
Russian aircraft are well-armed, extremely sturdy, and typically somewhat over-powered. They are also (as anyone who follows air shows and the various 'leak' journals) extremely manuverable when flown by test pilots. They are also unreliable, difficult to maintain, and suffer from serious deficiencies in materials and parts that make sustained deployment questionable at best.
None of this should suggest that the Russians cannot build a 5th generation aircraft, but what they have shown right now does not give a whole lot of basis for belief. Reading the brochures and then subtracting 10% from performance might sound prudent (and BW, I have no doubt that was your intention), but given the historical record, perhaps 60-75% subtraction might be closer to the mark. As for why people are interested in these systems....the reason should be obvious. The US isn't selling the F-22 to anyone (if the Japanese cannot buy one, we aren't selling PERIOD), the F-35 is hopelessly inadequate and overpriced, and the other alternatives (Gripen NG, Rafael, Typhoon, etc.) are simply not in the same league. The J-20 that the Chinese just showed off is interesting enough, but it is likely a decade away from deployment, and given the opacity of the Chinese development process, there may be far less than meets the eye.
A final point, the PAK FA is designed (like the F-22) primarily for air superiority, while the F-35 is designed primarily for ground attack. While the F-22/PAK FA/etc. can perform the ground attack role, they lose a great deal in efficiency doing so, and are likely not worth the cost for that family of missions. It is likely that a nation worried about being air superiority (either as an attacker or a defender) would be more likely to look at a non-F35 solution (the F-22 being unavailable), while the F-35 might be more appealing to a country interested in strike aircraft with a secondary air superiority capability.
The PAK FA is impressive to look at, and I am sure that it can perform any number of aerobatic manuvers in a controlled environment, but a superior 5th gen aircraft has to be a heck of a lot more than that to be truly competitive.
Russian avionics (particularly EW suites, the core of any modern fighter) are notorious for being unreliable and performing badly when used in real-world environments. Their radar systems make up for lack of sophistication with brute force (the MiG-25, for instance, used to use truly massive power levels to 'burn through' jamming, though it turns out that even this solution didn't work as jamming got more effective), their communications systems were insecure and vulnerable to spoofing, and their ability to conduct useful intercepts were often severely compromised by problems with true 3-D intercept solutions, often attributable to extremely poor software. As for defensive jamming, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that Russian systems even today can do very much to protect themselves in combat, a good recipe for some impromptu ejection training for their pilots in a best case scenario.
Electronics notwithstanding, Russian materials technology should be able to provide some stealthy materials for use in aircraft. Given the rather dismal experience with quality control that most Russian aircraft have demonstrated, there might be some legitimate questions as to whether or not this will actually work in practice. Once again, looking at MiG-25s and MiG-29s (not to mention the Su-27s and Su-30s that we now have been able to examine), there is little reason to be impressed with what the Russian aerospace industry can do beyond a few showpiece aircraft for demos. Airframe durability problems past about 2000 hrs have always been a problem for the Russians, and with the emphasis on highly aerobatic platforms this is only likely to get worse.
Russian aircraft are well-armed, extremely sturdy, and typically somewhat over-powered. They are also (as anyone who follows air shows and the various 'leak' journals) extremely manuverable when flown by test pilots. They are also unreliable, difficult to maintain, and suffer from serious deficiencies in materials and parts that make sustained deployment questionable at best.
None of this should suggest that the Russians cannot build a 5th generation aircraft, but what they have shown right now does not give a whole lot of basis for belief. Reading the brochures and then subtracting 10% from performance might sound prudent (and BW, I have no doubt that was your intention), but given the historical record, perhaps 60-75% subtraction might be closer to the mark. As for why people are interested in these systems....the reason should be obvious. The US isn't selling the F-22 to anyone (if the Japanese cannot buy one, we aren't selling PERIOD), the F-35 is hopelessly inadequate and overpriced, and the other alternatives (Gripen NG, Rafael, Typhoon, etc.) are simply not in the same league. The J-20 that the Chinese just showed off is interesting enough, but it is likely a decade away from deployment, and given the opacity of the Chinese development process, there may be far less than meets the eye.
A final point, the PAK FA is designed (like the F-22) primarily for air superiority, while the F-35 is designed primarily for ground attack. While the F-22/PAK FA/etc. can perform the ground attack role, they lose a great deal in efficiency doing so, and are likely not worth the cost for that family of missions. It is likely that a nation worried about being air superiority (either as an attacker or a defender) would be more likely to look at a non-F35 solution (the F-22 being unavailable), while the F-35 might be more appealing to a country interested in strike aircraft with a secondary air superiority capability.
What would be good for air superiority ? New F15? Typhoon? Some suhkoi/mig?
Pilot quality...
BW,
As always you make solid points regarding pilot quality, but I should point out that the Indians have plenty of Su-27s, Su-30s, and MiG-29s (not to mention MiG-21s, of which the less said, the better), and their pilots are certainly NOT low quality. I cannot cite anything open to you, but the folks I have spoken with in the USAF and the USN argue that Indian pilots (and ground crews, the latter of which is probably far more important in terms of operations) are as good or better than anything that the Russians have. Take that as you will, the Indians are clearly nowhere near the doldrums inhabited by the Arabs and other low-rent airforces.
Your comment regarding relative pricing is very well taken (I didn't address that...my bad), and I think that 30% might even be a bit conservative. If 3rd and 4th gen aircraft are any indicator, 40-45% is probably closer to the mark, particularly when it comes to 'packages' of spare parts, tech support, etc. Given that later generations of aircraft are more support intensive, the 'Russian discount' is a major issue. More to the point, many of these third world pestholes buy aircraft as 'cargo cult' items...i.e. you buy them for your airforce because successful airforces have them, and if you buy them you will hence be successful. With this in mind, relative effectiveness is not altogether that important.
As to relative effectiveness, obviously reasonable people can disagree, but the track record for Russian aircraft is not good, and given that they are nowhere near production yet, much less serious deployment, I wonder how the brochures can be taken too seriously. Hopefully, this will remain a matter of complete conjecture indefinitely, as if we are all VERY fortunate, none of these planes will ever fire a shot in anger
BW,
As always you make solid points regarding pilot quality, but I should point out that the Indians have plenty of Su-27s, Su-30s, and MiG-29s (not to mention MiG-21s, of which the less said, the better), and their pilots are certainly NOT low quality. I cannot cite anything open to you, but the folks I have spoken with in the USAF and the USN argue that Indian pilots (and ground crews, the latter of which is probably far more important in terms of operations) are as good or better than anything that the Russians have. Take that as you will, the Indians are clearly nowhere near the doldrums inhabited by the Arabs and other low-rent airforces.
Your comment regarding relative pricing is very well taken (I didn't address that...my bad), and I think that 30% might even be a bit conservative. If 3rd and 4th gen aircraft are any indicator, 40-45% is probably closer to the mark, particularly when it comes to 'packages' of spare parts, tech support, etc. Given that later generations of aircraft are more support intensive, the 'Russian discount' is a major issue. More to the point, many of these third world pestholes buy aircraft as 'cargo cult' items...i.e. you buy them for your airforce because successful airforces have them, and if you buy them you will hence be successful. With this in mind, relative effectiveness is not altogether that important.
As to relative effectiveness, obviously reasonable people can disagree, but the track record for Russian aircraft is not good, and given that they are nowhere near production yet, much less serious deployment, I wonder how the brochures can be taken too seriously. Hopefully, this will remain a matter of complete conjecture indefinitely, as if we are all VERY fortunate, none of these planes will ever fire a shot in anger
Alternatives to the F-35/PAK FA
Simssss,
For air superiority, I would take a good long look at the F-15 "Silent Eagle" that Boeing has floated about. No match for an F-22, but a fascinating aircraft in many ways. The Rafael and Typhoon are euro-crap in my opinion, but the new Gripen is well worth a long look as well. I am no big fan of the Sukhois, and the less said of the latest MiGs the more merciful, but certainly the Su-30 offers a fairly good price/performance mix, as long as you are careful to upgrade the avionics. Finally the F-18E/F is an interesting platform, though I have issues with the engines and all that entails.
For a nation on a budget, a block 80 (the UAE model) of the F-16 isn't a bad choice...
Simssss,
For air superiority, I would take a good long look at the F-15 "Silent Eagle" that Boeing has floated about. No match for an F-22, but a fascinating aircraft in many ways. The Rafael and Typhoon are euro-crap in my opinion, but the new Gripen is well worth a long look as well. I am no big fan of the Sukhois, and the less said of the latest MiGs the more merciful, but certainly the Su-30 offers a fairly good price/performance mix, as long as you are careful to upgrade the avionics. Finally the F-18E/F is an interesting platform, though I have issues with the engines and all that entails.
For a nation on a budget, a block 80 (the UAE model) of the F-16 isn't a bad choice...
The Su-30 MKI that the IAF (Indian Air Force) use are good ones.....
And in the exercises they do with the USAF, the Americans gain a lot of respect for the pilots and the planes.....
Take in consideration that the IAF can buy any plane (except the F-22 that is not for sale), and they like the Sukois......
And in the exercises they do with the USAF, the Americans gain a lot of respect for the pilots and the planes.....
Take in consideration that the IAF can buy any plane (except the F-22 that is not for sale), and they like the Sukois......
I did some reading that the Poles are pretty happy with the Block 50/52s they got a few years back. Granted, we gave them a sweetheart deal in order to get them to pick it over some of the competition, but it's not a bad plane.
BlairWitch749
Banned
The silent eagle looks awesome in photos BUT, given Boeing's unbelivable production back log/labor issues/ and recent inability to deliver things on time and on budget, I would be vary wary about contracting for squadrons of those at the moment unless i got huge price breaks or credit if they don't deliver on time
I notice that on page 2, the X-32 isn't mentioned or addressed any more. Pretty much as OTL. The 2 units tested were in a delta wing format which Boeing admitted did not meet performance criteria. The final configuration was not tested, or built. The final decision was thus a push for X-35.
Considering the importance of the program, fulfilling several roles in all American and several foreign services, to the exclusion of everything else, I think the fly-off was a little cheesy.
Can't wait to see the proposed MiG LMFS-1 in the flesh, so we can argue about how much it costs.
Considering the importance of the program, fulfilling several roles in all American and several foreign services, to the exclusion of everything else, I think the fly-off was a little cheesy.
Can't wait to see the proposed MiG LMFS-1 in the flesh, so we can argue about how much it costs.
Operational aircraft....
Paulo,
For someone on an alternate history website, you certainly have a grim dedication to reality (grin)....
The Silent Eagle has been flown for demonstration purposes, but there are no production/deployed models. BW, you are correct in worrying about Boeing's production backlog issues, but those are typically more of a problem for commercial buyers. They certainly have military delivery issues, but it is hard to imagine an aerospace firm (with the possible exception of IAI) that doesn't have them. Certainly if you want to compare vendors, I would go with Boeing over either Sukhoi or MiG....
Paulo,
For someone on an alternate history website, you certainly have a grim dedication to reality (grin)....
The Silent Eagle has been flown for demonstration purposes, but there are no production/deployed models. BW, you are correct in worrying about Boeing's production backlog issues, but those are typically more of a problem for commercial buyers. They certainly have military delivery issues, but it is hard to imagine an aerospace firm (with the possible exception of IAI) that doesn't have them. Certainly if you want to compare vendors, I would go with Boeing over either Sukhoi or MiG....
BlairWitch749
Banned
Boeing is in a cluster cycle though with the dreamliner, the air force tanker and a whole bunch of other stuff... id rather order from Sukhoi and actually take deliver, as opposed to Boeing never actually building the plane lol
I'm not opposed to the design, but I would have to have a garuanteed deliver schedule with huge penalties on Boeing if they fail to deliver
Boeing vs Sukhoi
The Dreamliner is a commercial aircraft (and yes, I would agree with you that their problems there are serious impediments to sales, hence their choice to build in SC), and the tanker is more a political issue beyond Boeing's control. For most military deliveries, they aren't too bad, and at least they manage to deliver their aircraft without the blatant contract issues that Sukhoi (and virtually every Russian arms maker) presents. The Indians, quite apart from their issues with ships, have had endless problems with the Russians providing even basic maintenance support for the Su-30s that the Indians bought.
And lets not even get into quality control....
The Dreamliner is a commercial aircraft (and yes, I would agree with you that their problems there are serious impediments to sales, hence their choice to build in SC), and the tanker is more a political issue beyond Boeing's control. For most military deliveries, they aren't too bad, and at least they manage to deliver their aircraft without the blatant contract issues that Sukhoi (and virtually every Russian arms maker) presents. The Indians, quite apart from their issues with ships, have had endless problems with the Russians providing even basic maintenance support for the Su-30s that the Indians bought.
And lets not even get into quality control....