Concerned Brazilian
Gone Fishin'
If the project didn't compete with the F-15 and F-16 for sales, which nations (other than Taiwan) would purchase it? Would the Tigershark ever be tested in combat?
F-20 Tigershark
- Thread starter Concerned Brazilian
- Start date
Would some of the old existing F5 customers not be interested if it were to go into production? As to combat, likely any of the small counter insurgency or similar wars that the nations involved would use them for?
Potential customers?
South Korean, Brazil or Turkey as join project to take over development when US losing interest, to make them for local & export? All F5 users who might want to build a local fighter/aircraft base with a low level fighter F5 replacement and be willing to work with F20 as start in a join deal if US allowed it as they are regional allies, and it's a low end aircraft below F16 anyway that they are giving up?
War wise, maybe sell them to the Philippines (an old F5s user) and home use by Turkey could use them in ground attack missions or SK F20 could get in a fight on the northern limit line? (and other F20s sales to minor air forces in Africa, Middle Eastern & Asian conflicts?)
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I mean the whole reason for the F20s existence was the Carter admins restrictions on exporting higher capability US weaponry. Since the F16 was to be "higher end" the F20 was to skirt the Carter Admin rules and take up that end of the export market for cheaper US fighters.
Really it's hard to see how much of those Carter Admin export restrictions stay in effect especially in regards to allies. The less you produce of something the more expensive it's generally going to be. So if the US isn't going to be selling hundreds of f16s to US aligned states then for the USAF the per unit aircraft price is going to be a good bit higher meaning either orders get cut (which causes cost to jump even higher. Look at the OTL F22 and B2.) or the US military budget effectively has to always be substantially higher then OTL.
Those sweet sweet dollars and jobs from exporting American developed and manufactured arms are just too tempting to keep passing up for long.
Really it's hard to see how much of those Carter Admin export restrictions stay in effect especially in regards to allies. The less you produce of something the more expensive it's generally going to be. So if the US isn't going to be selling hundreds of f16s to US aligned states then for the USAF the per unit aircraft price is going to be a good bit higher meaning either orders get cut (which causes cost to jump even higher. Look at the OTL F22 and B2.) or the US military budget effectively has to always be substantially higher then OTL.
Those sweet sweet dollars and jobs from exporting American developed and manufactured arms are just too tempting to keep passing up for long.
The F 20 was in some ways a missed opportunity as it could have been the ideal multirole fighterbomber for many different countries. It was able to run BVR missiles and other guided munitions that need radar cueing. It's problem was that the F-16 needed sales support that would be diluted by the F-20 and the F-16 was more capable.
New Zealand and Singapore would have been ideal customers.
Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, Egypt etc etc would have been options in addition to Taiwan.
New Zealand and Singapore would have been ideal customers.
Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, Egypt etc etc would have been options in addition to Taiwan.
There have been talks with Yugoslavia regarding the licensed production, Yugoslavia decided to chase pie in the sky that was Novi Avion instead.
I love the F-20, but it was obsolete the moment the F-16 export restrictions were lifted. A lot of its supposed readiness and ease of maintenance came from handpicked crews and a few prototypes, and the F-5 platform isn't that good.
On the subject of the thread, there was a proposal to export a ton of Tigersharks to mainland China to help head off the USSR. Which would have led to quite the butterflies...
On the subject of the thread, there was a proposal to export a ton of Tigersharks to mainland China to help head off the USSR. Which would have led to quite the butterflies...
It would be purchased by countries that had the F-4, that is certain. But the point how would it compete with the F-16 and F-18 in sales, being bought only for countries that have a limited budged, but needed some modernization.
Interesting would be a modernized F-20, with modern systems ans stealth, it would be an alternative for Gripen.
It wouldn't compete with the F-16 and F-18. Anyone who could buy those aircraft would ignore the F-20, because they don't want to run an orphan fleet. If they can't take advantage of the USAF or USN supply chain, they can't be sure of getting the stores and support they need at an acceptable price.
I think the F-20 is a good aircraft, and a better fit for many countries than the F-16. But if the US isn't using it, nobody is going to buy it if they can get something the US is using.
Not sure how good a modernised F20 would be against say a Gripen, you can't really make it Stealth, you probably can fit a AESA radarbut like the Lancer and Bison upgrades for the Fishbed what you essentially underneath is still a Fishbed. And you get to the point where the design runs put of growth potential,.it becomes the law of diminishing returns , ie you get less and less capability for x amount of time and money.
The only way I could see this happening is to have the reformers win. Have John Boyd become much more influential in the Air Force to the detriment of that service.
I think the main reason would have to be local production and low cost? I think an F20 design sold off as an early join project to some US allied nation wanting to build a local aircraft fighter manufacturing base, like an early KAI T-50 Golden Eagle but in 80s as a light fighter/advanced trainer?
Much worse, but then it's much older and based off the F5 thats much older still...
I was talking about countries that can't purchase a F-16 or F-18, but still wants a light fighter similar to a F-5. If the T-38 (that are a F-5 variant) in US service are replaced with F-20, maybe they could have a chance.
Not saying full stealth, but some modifications, like composites and shaping. I don't know how a fully modernized would fare in combat against a Gripen in combat, but they would be a success in a commercial sense.
That's about the only case that makes any sense at all, but in most cases I still can't see it happening. I'm imagining the conversation with New Zealand sometime in the late 1980s...
NZ: Yeah, gidday, we'd like to buy a couple dozen of those F-16s you guys have just started using.
US: Before we answer that, what do you think of the F-20?
NZ: Looks all right, but it's not what we want. You blokes don't use it, for a start.
US: Are you sure? They're cheap!
NZ: Mate, we only buy aircraft every 30 years. Anything we buy, we have to make last for at least that long. Something cheap doesn't sound like a good bet.
US: They're easy to maintain too! You might even be able to build them... we're happy to teach you. What do you say?
NZ: Maintenance isn't a problem, we can do a lot with a bit of No 8 fencing wire. Look, we only want a couple of dozen planes, 30 at the absolute most. It's not worth setting up a production line! If you blokes can't sell them, then who are we going to flog the extras off to?
US: Maybe your local allies? How about Australia or Singapore?
NZ: They just bought F-18s and F-16s, real combat aircraft that their primary defence partner is using! We're a tiny country at the arse-end of nowehere, we don't want to set up an entire supply line for planes nobody nearby is using. Can't you just sell us some F-16s?
US: ...
NZ: ...
US: ...
NZ: Actually, sod it. We'll just upgrade the A-4s a bit more. Laters.
US: ... so no F-20s, then..?
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Forget about NZ think SK or Turkey or Brazil that wants to build a domestic aircraft industry and already flies F5s as a large part of its air force? That could be very attractive as a commercial deal to take over the F20 project if US gov allowed its sale and full tech transfer to them, so they could then build them themselves. Using some US components like the engines but far less than F16s and also far cheaper and make an advanced trainer at the same time from it.
They might think F16 local production (ok maybe not for NATO...) and full tech transfer might be off the table anyway and the F20 was a better deal from that point, and would maybe make money for low end export sales as well, replacing F5 fleets?
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Riain
Banned
Nobody will buy it if the US doesn't. The USAF bought a small number of F5As and used them in combat in order to show the US support of the type to export customers, as well as creating the huge support base with the T38 Talon trainer. The USAF also bought F5Es for its Aggressor squadrons, again setting up the support infrastructure that export customers (which are small and poor countries) can then lean on.
The US wasn't giving the F20 any measure of support, so these small, poor countries will have to set up the entire support industry themselves , which makes it extremely unlikely.
The US wasn't giving the F20 any measure of support, so these small, poor countries will have to set up the entire support industry themselves , which makes it extremely unlikely.
That would be interesting, with the F-20 project sold and being produced in other countries. India tried to do this, but due to their russian alignment, they were rejected.
But what if Brazil did that? They don't use the F-16, like SK and Turkey, but wanted until 2010s to produce their own aircraft. They even modernized their own F-5 to cover that gap.
South Korea and Turkey got F-16 license deals anyway, which got them experience and a better plane.
As for Brazil, they weren’t interested in new fighters until the late 90s, by which point the Tigershark is dead and buried.
Agreed, but would it not depend on the licence deal? For example, SK has later still gone with KAI T-50 Golden Eagle thats not that different from the F20 to complement its better fighters if it was commercially offered the sale of the F20 project by Northrop after they lost interest in a deal that allowed export sales unlike the F16 deals that were very much US lead & controlled, then it might make for an interesting joint deal?
No. Bluntly, South Korea would not be interested in exports in the 1980s. F-16s get them the tech transfer and production experience they wanted, and a better airplane for the ROKAF. The T-50 is a much later project that has the advantage of being entirely designed in Korea and as such was an important stepping stone towards the KF-21.
I should also note that for the T-50 sales KAI is very much reliant on Lockheed Martin’s marketing team. Given the marketing issues the F-20 had, that’s further disincentive.