Eyes Turned Skywards

i turned the question around:

how became Truly NASA Administrator under Bush and how he failed and why go Goldin succeed him ?

Read the document Archibald linked (if you do, carefully, you can see exactly why certain actors did the things they did here...while I maintain everything that has happened in the last post is plausible, it definitely is aiming towards a particular outcome.

Essentially, though, Truly was appointed because he had been an effective Deputy or Assistant Administrator during the Return to Flight and was just sort of everyone's default choice. As Archibald points out this turned out tobe a huge mistake, because he was a shuttle-hugger and not very interested in Bush's large new exploration program. Sort of the opposite of Bolden; whereas Bolden is (accurately or not) seen as a bit of a puppet for Obama, Truly was semi-actively opposing the Bush-Quayle program, or at least being...less than active in furthering it.
 
I find it somehow appropriate that the Challenger helps build America's space station. At least it avoided OTL's fate (really, NASA, you let the Challenger take off despite a malfunction in the O-ring because of cold weather which you were warned about by the O-ring manufacturer.).
 
I find it somehow appropriate that the Challenger helps build America's space station. At least it avoided OTL's fate (really, NASA, you let the Challenger take off despite a malfunction in the O-ring because of cold weather which you were warned about by the O-ring manufacturer.).
While I like that somebody finally caught that detail, technically Challenger isn't a spacecraft here--it's the module (as is the Discovery US lab module, another Freedom module ITTL), like Unity, Destiny, Zarya, Zvezda and so many others are modules IOTL. Still...I found it appropriate, too, which is why I named them that.
 
Part II: Post 29: The Exploration Report, the Roadmap for NASA's future
Blech, sorry about the delay but I've been caught in the dread forces of engineering homeworksplosion. But now I am here, and thus, now it is once again that time. Last week, we left off with President Bush's proposal of what Administrator Harrison Schmitt dubbed, "Project Constellation." This week, let's talk about Constellation in a little bit more detail, shall we? 1263 replies, 156559 views

Eyes Turned Skyward, Part 2: Post #29

During the course of their analysis, the Office of Exploration concluded that all existing human exploration plans, including previous NASA plans, could be sorted into five basic categories: Lunar Sorties, Lunar Bases, Mars Sorties, Lunar Sorties and Mars Sorties, and Lunar Bases and Mars Sorties. While many plans also included additional development steps, such as the construction of Lunar colonies or Martian bases, these steps were generally envisioned either as follow-ons to a core program that fit into one of the previous categories, or as support mechanisms to a categorizable program. To determine which of the five possible approaches was best, they stringently analyzed all of them under conditions passed down from the Administration and from the NASA Administrator, particularly an assumption of (inflation-adjusted) flat budgets for the foreseeable future, constructing reference and alternative scenarios for each one based on both the best previous NASA studies and the multitude of private studies that had flooded their mailbox. The resulting Report of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Office of Exploration on the President's Space Initiative, a title quickly condensed to "Exploration Report", weighed in at over 500 pages of detailed technical and financial analysis of a wide range of mission options, even if the resulting recommendations were surprisingly simple and conventional.

During its analysis, the Office of Exploration was forced to discard the three options involving Mars flights as non-viable. While exploring Mars was highly exciting and a truly pioneering possible goal for NASA, even aggressive deployment of the best new technologies suggested to the Office of Exploration could not get humans there fast enough, safely enough, nor cheaply enough for Mars exploration to be viable. Spending a decade or more with the only NASA program being Freedom could lead to severe technical and workforce difficulties, especially if the new technologies, mostly in an early stage of development as of 1989, proved less useful than believed or even impossible to implement. Even at that, the assumed funding profile of NASA in future years could not support Mars exploration, Freedom, a diverse and capable robotic exploration program, and NASA's other research areas at the same time. Something would have to give, and the Office believed it would most likely be the ambitious, expensive, and as yet unproven Mars exploration program. Thus, while the next century might indeed see a journey into tomorrow, it would of necessity have to be tomorrow's journey. At most, an R&D program might be created to investigate advanced technologies which could either lower costs or accelerate the timeframe of piloted Mars missions, something recommended by the Office in all of its reference approaches. Those options involving lunar exploration before Mars exploration were even worse from the standpoint of budgets and schedules. Under the budgetary and technological assumptions of the report, a Mars mission might not be possible before the 2020s or even the 2030s, a time horizon so far ahead that any planning, even the vaguest and most general, was an absurdity, almost certain to be overtaken by unforeseen events.

Unlike Mars missions, however, lunar missions were tagged by the report as entirely possible, even under the stringent budget conditions imposed by the Administration. Much of NASA's hardware was, after all, derived from the equipment used for the first lunar missions, and the Moon posed far smaller technical challenges for just surviving to reach it than Mars did. The only question remaining was whether a program of lunar sorties alone or lunar sorties followed by a lunar base was the better choice. Limited to briefly and superficially analyzing a few sites scattered across a vast amount of land, sorties seemed to offer little promise of in-depth scientific exploration of the Moon, and no hope of developing the tools and technologies needed to exploit lunar resources for future missions. By leaving little infrastructure in place, later missions would be no cheaper or better supported than early ones, increasing the risk of the entire program ending like Apollo, with an expensive and capable system designed and implemented only to be dismantled almost immediately as it started to demonstrate itself. All in all, sorties alone could only offer cost advantages, and that only if a strictly limited number were planned. Therefore, the report recommended that the Administration and Congress adopt Option B, Lunar Bases, together with a relatively small advanced technology program intended to "pave the way" for Mars and a number of other more minor research and development or support programs to extend the capabilities of future lunar or Mars missions beyond the state of the art. To complement this recommendation, the Office of Exploration condensed what it considered some of the best proposals that had been developed, either by NASA or by other organizations, into a single reference architecture for the entire Constellation program. While several alternatives, including Office-constructed reference architectures for the other four mission options, were presented, the final report made it clear that Option B, in the design presented by the Office of Exploration, was their preferred architecture choice.

In the reference implementation of Option B, Project Constellation would start with the completion of Freedom in 1992, leading to a diversion of Freedom development and construction funds towards the existing Advanced Crew Vehicle program, a new lunar lander, upgrades to the Saturn Multibody (primarily involving the use of weight-saving materials such as new aluminum-lithium alloys in vehicle construction), and a series of lunar precursor missions, possibly involving international partners. Before the ACV and lander finished development, orbiters, landers, and possibly even sample return probes would venture to the Moon to fill in the gaps left by the Lunar Reconnaissance Pioneer, narrowing down the list of sites to visit and providing an initial view of the Moon. Once the ACV and lander were completed and tested, estimated to be by 1998 or 1999, the first lunar mission would be launched. Using multiple Saturn Heavy launches, an ACV/lander/Earth Departure Stage stack would be assembled in low Earth orbit, then depart for the Moon. Once near the Moon, all four crew members would enter the lander and depart for the lunar surface, where they would spend up to two weeks (if a second cargo lander had been dispatched on a previous launch) exploring the lunar surface.

After a series of these sorties, perhaps five or six in total, the ideal location for a permanent base would have been determined. Before any further human crews ventured there, a series of cargo landers would transport essential equipment, such as habitat modules, power generation systems, and other key elements of any base to the chosen location, where teleoperated construction equipment also transported by the cargo craft would begin assembling and checking out the base. The first human crew would continue these assembly and checkout activities, focusing on those areas where a human presence, not merely a human operator, were needed for effective operation. This crew would stay at the base for 180 days, like their colleagues on Freedom, transforming the base from a jumble of modules and landers into a tiny "home away from home" on the harsh lunar surface. After the astronauts returned from their lunar mission, another crew might arrive and continue the work of exploring the area around the base and demonstrating key technologies and capabilities needed for future lunar bases and Mars exploration, or the base equipment might be teleoperated for some time between crews. With the lunar base constructed and beginning to operate, if only in a human-tended mode, many options presented themselves. An infrastructure of fuel depots, reusable space tugs (both electric and chemical, using aerobraking to ease the return from cislunar space), reusable landers, perhaps even that chimeric dream of a reusable launch vehicle might be used to reduce operational costs and allow more frequent ventures to the base, or the base's expansion. If initial experiments in in-situ resource utilization, in extracting oxygen from lunar rocks for example, had panned out, the base could be enlarged to house even more people, supporting a growing production of lunar resources. Alternately, the base could be only intermittently crewed as part of Mars simulations, focusing on making the jump to the next possible destination beyond Earth. Any of these options, or more, could be selected by a future Congress and President, since visionary leadership on the part of the current Congress and President would have enabled them to make that decision. However, they were not part of the core program, and not needed for the United States to reestablish its leadership in space exploration.

The entire recommended program was estimated by the Office of Exploration to cost approximately $50 billion; $12 billion for development of all the spacecraft needed for the lunar landings, plus another $8 billion for the recommended six mission sortie sequence, plus $10 billion for Mars-related R&D and a suite of precursor missions to Mars, leading up to the Mars Sample Return widely agreed to be necessary before any human missions to the Red Planet, and finally $20 billion for construction and several years of operation of the planned lunar base[1]. These $50 billion in expenditures would be spread across twenty years of development and operations, leading to an average annual cost of $2.5 billion, only about 25% larger than the projected ongoing cost of maintaining and operating Freedom. Of course, the peak funding requirements would be higher, but given the administration’s official budget estimates these would be easily manageable, little worse than having to support Freedom’s development while Spacelab remained operational.

Not unjustly, the Lunar Society saw the recommendations of the Exploration Report as a significant victory for its vision of space. For more than a decade, it had been vigorously supporting a return to the Moon and the construction of a lunar base as the best next steps for NASA beyond Earth orbit. While it had turned towards supporting private industry as the spearhead of further development and private efforts to lower the cost of launch during the 1980s, enough of its members still held the agency that had landed fourteen men on the Moon in sufficiently high regard that they were willing to go along with a plan that seemed to herald a new age for lunar exploration and development. Similarly, the National Space Organization was, if not as enthusiastic about the report, then at least willing to go along with it, happy that NASA, and apparently the administration, were focusing again on space exploration. If Carl Sagan had still been at the helm, he might have pushed for greater integration of robotic exploration and international collaboration, but he had stepped down from the leadership years earlier to pursue his interests in science advocacy and skepticism outside of the NSO.

In the halls of Congress, meanwhile the Exploration Report was meeting a more ambivalent treatment. Although the time was simply ripe for beginning a major new space initiative designed to reinvigorate NASA from the relative torpor it had languished in for the past two decades, even with the growing deficit, or perhaps because of it, the $50 billion price tag (even spread out over twenty years) seemed overly high, and committing future Congresses to take specific action such as setting up lunar bases a step too far. The lower cost Option A, lunar sorties together with studies of lunar bases and Mars missions, and a Mars precursor program, was more attractive to a Congress and Administration looking to tackle budget deficits, offering most of the political advantages of a reinvigorated space program at considerably less cost. It would still allow a variety of new contracts to flow into aerospace companies hurting from the end of the Cold War, and still allow Congress members to point and say, “Yes, the United States can Do Great Things,” but without breaking the bank. This revised proposal was able to easily pass through the House and Senate, allowing Constellation to pass from proposal to policy by late 1990.

[1]: This is similar generally to the expected costs of a number of proposed lunar return and base construction studies IOTL during the 1980s and 1990s. Obviously in Eyes Turned Skywards they benefit particularly from not needing to develop a new heavy-lift launch vehicle, something which was often one of the major costs IOTL.
 
So if I've read this correctly, Administrator Schmitt has managed to secure most - if not all - of what he desired. The Moon is once again a mandated target to send a crew, though the use of Lunar Bases has been significantly curtailed.

Aluminium-Lithium Alloy. IOTL, used on the STS ET to permit the shuttles to send a sufficient payload to OTL ISS to actually be of any use. ITTL, to permit a greater LEO and BEO payload from the Saturn Family.

Now from what I can see, it would - at first glance - appear to be three launches to send the entire Orbiter/Lander/EDS Stack into LEO before firing the lot into TLI. With a fourth launch to send a Cargo Lander on it's own for extended missions. The two-week mission has, one distinct advantage over the week-long mission that I can see. The ability to land anywhere of the Lunar Surface. This is on account of it's 27 day-long day/night cycle IIRC, which means you only get return opportunities to an orbiter every two weeks. That said, I can easily see them finding a lot of He3 and Water-Ice on the Lunar Poles which would make them the favoured targets, where getting back should be a lot simpler - or at least, a lot less propellant-hungry.

And just 50Bn USD? Certainly a lot better than OTL's 90 Day Report's 450Bn USD price tag! And almost certainly a reason that NASA managed to get a good deal out what they presented ITTL. No doubt aided by the fact that Freedom is nearing completion, and the Saturn MultiBody LV already exists, and is already in use.

Really good to know that something called Project Constellation can actually be made to work. Yes, I did get that reference. ;)
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Robert Zubrin after reading the Exploration Report.

Buzz Aldwin after reading the Exploration Report.

again a good post ;)
i had suspected that US house would shot down Manned Mars Mission.
but instead it's NASA the Office of Exploration, who kill the Mars Dreams!

in My TL Ronald Reagan's Space Exploration Initiative
i face the same problem, so i introduce the Enigma of the Mars "Black Areas"
to keep the US house&NASA and rest oft world focus on Manned Mars Mission...
 
Option A is a 'been there, done that' repeat of apollo, essentially, no? How is that going to grab anyones attention?

Yes, because the Apollo 11 landing will be 25 years old, if new mission lands on Lunar Surface.
a new Generation is cluster around there TV-sets, it will break all TV rating records since Apollo 11.
but after several missions it will just like Apollo drooping ratings...
 
Option A is a 'been there, done that' repeat of apollo, essentially, no? How is that going to grab anyones attention?

Well, a couple of reasons. Certain people notwithstanding, they don't have the budget to go to Mars; that would require significant new technology development, whereas their existing hardware is capable of Moon missions with relatively minimal new development. Certainly many of the planners (Schmitt included) wanted to launch Mars missions, but it just wasn't politically palatable. So they compromised on the Moon.

Of course, the Office of Exploration was perfectly aware of the BTDT reasoning, which is part of why they recommended Option "B," not Option "A". A lunar base would, like Spacelab and Freedom, establish a continuous presence which they figured would be harder to dismantle completely (it would also offer scientific advantages compared to sorties, naturally). However, even though the whole shebang was a lot cheaper than SEI, it was still too rich for Congress' blood, so they cut the base part...still, the hardware is more than capable of supporting a base should someone in the future decide to do so, if you get my drift...

Essentially, it ends up being many of the same reasons that the OTL Constellation decided to go for the Moon, and many of the reasons why people now (as in, now OTL) want to use

So if I've read this correctly, Administrator Schmitt has managed to secure most - if not all - of what he desired. The Moon is once again a mandated target to send a crew, though the use of Lunar Bases has been significantly curtailed.

Actually, he more or less changed his mind about what he wanted...Schmitt, both OTL and ITTL, wanted a Mars mission during the '80s for basically the reasons Dathi states, the "BTDT" objection (which is quite the contrast with his present OTL enthusiasm, of course). But that wasn't practical, so...

In the end, though, you're correct. He manged to get NASA back in exploration, rather than puttering around in low Earth orbit. Puttering around to much more effect than NASA in the same period OTL, of course--space medicine is much closer to the present-day level than it actually was in 1990/1991, for instance--but nevertheless puttering.

Now from what I can see, it would - at first glance - appear to be three launches to send the entire Orbiter/Lander/EDS Stack into LEO before firing the lot into TLI. With a fourth launch to send a Cargo Lander on it's own for extended missions.

This is incorrect. Two launches are required for the ACV/Lander/EDS stack to be launched into LEO before initiating a TLI burn. A third, previous launch is required to send a cargo lander to the surface first, which enables missions of greater length to be carried out (technically this is considered an "Extended" capability, but every mission will use it). The precise architecture will be described in great detail in Part III.

The two-week mission has, one distinct advantage over the week-long mission that I can see. The ability to land anywhere of the Lunar Surface. This is on account of it's 27 day-long day/night cycle IIRC, which means you only get return opportunities to an orbiter every two weeks.

It's actually a rather complicated problem which depends on propellant budgets, the landing latitude, and the inclination of the orbit. Polar and equatorial sites can get return to orbit windows roughly every 90 minutes with proper orbit placement, mid-latitude sites are harder (there's also the problem of return-to-Earth windows, which is another can of worms entirely).

That said, there are ways to bypass the issue entirely...

That said, I can easily see them finding a lot of He3 and Water-Ice on the Lunar Poles which would make them the favoured targets, where getting back should be a lot simpler - or at least, a lot less propellant-hungry.

He3, maybe not so much, water ice...well, Part III will be covering this in much more detail, but the Lunar Reconnaissance Pioneer precedes Constellation. Important point, that.

And just 50Bn USD? Certainly a lot better than OTL's 90 Day Report's 450Bn USD price tag! And almost certainly a reason that NASA managed to get a good deal out what they presented ITTL. No doubt aided by the fact that Freedom is nearing completion, and the Saturn MultiBody LV already exists, and is already in use.

Well, partially, plus the fact that they've totally dumped Mars and all the hideously expensive development needed for that from the budget. As noted in the footnote, $50 billion is similar to the estimated budget of several contemporaneous Moon base plans, under different development assumptions.
 
At least this is one area people can't attack Quayle on:D.

Seriously, though, will you explore the Matagorda Bay spaceport further (as well as the development of computers in the 1990s) in upcoming posts?

I wonder if NASA will be targeted on 9/11 ITTL (or, if the TTL tech will play a role in TTL's War on Terror, assuming either happen as OTL)?
 
Hello Truth,

Another great - and realistic - update. Keep it up.

I think this is a fair appraisal of the political limitations on what was possible in 1989-90. The deficit was starting to soar again, as Gramm-Rudman-Hollings provisions started kicking out, and Bush was less resistant to new spending...and the 1990-91 recession would only make fiscal matters worse. Bob Zubrin makes many great points about what's feasible for Mars exploration, but there is no getting around the fact that sending men there is much more difficult, dangerous, and expensive than sending them to the Moon. And I just can't see it in the cards in the 1990's - not unless there's some damned compelling reason to go there, like evidence of life or extraterrestrial artifacts (in other words, ASB).

Of course, the Office of Exploration was perfectly aware of the BTDT reasoning, which is part of why they recommended Option "B," not Option "A". A lunar base would, like Spacelab and Freedom, establish a continuous presence which they figured would be harder to dismantle completely (it would also offer scientific advantages compared to sorties, naturally). However, even though the whole shebang was a lot cheaper than SEI, it was still too rich for Congress' blood, so they cut the base part...still, the hardware is more than capable of supporting a base should someone in the future decide to do so, if you get my drift...

It's the old NASA rope-a-dope. Once a program is in place - and supporting jobs in key districts - it is much more difficult to get rid of. It's also easier to accept expansions (see the Voyager program in our timeline). I assume NASA is doing the usual budget low-balling estimates as it is...

But one does hope this doesn't become another Apollo Dead End. They have to find a way to make the lunar presence permanent. And as self-sustaining as possible. Two weeks beats three days, but there's a hard limit to what you can accomplish in a fortnight.

If you push this timeline far enough for Constellation implementation, I'll be curious to see how robust you make the infrastructure. We all know how many close calls Apollo had...rescue options are hard enough in LEO, but anyone stranded on the Moon or in lunar orbit is 240K miles plus away from Mr. Goodwrench. A fatal accident in lunar environs could easily call Constellation into question.
 
IThis is incorrect. Two launches are required for the ACV/Lander/EDS stack to be launched into LEO before initiating a TLI burn. A third, previous launch is required to send a cargo lander to the surface first, which enables missions of greater length to be carried out (technically this is considered an "Extended" capability, but every mission will use it). The precise architecture will be described in great detail in Part III.

Okay, I think I have an idea as to how the new Lunar Architecture would operate ITTL. But for now, I'm putting my money on the Small Orbiter/Large Lander setup here - essentially the opposite of OTL and TTL Lunar Apollo Missions from '69 to '72/3.
 
Seriously, though, will you explore the Matagorda Bay spaceport further (as well as the development of computers in the 1990s) in upcoming posts?
Fear not, we will be returning attention to fair Matagorda and ALS in a post for Part III, there's actually a full post planned on covering how that's going. And there might be another couple bits of action down there, depending on how some planning discussions between Truth and I shake out. As far as computers...well, we've had some thoughts which will be appearing in Part III (though mostly from the telecommunications end, not the hardware), but frankly neither of us is much of an expert in that area, so as it stands unless we find a consultant, it's apt to continue to receive as little specific detail as we can get away with.

I wonder if NASA will be targeted on 9/11 ITTL (or, if the TTL tech will play a role in TTL's War on Terror, assuming either happen as OTL)?
All I'll say about terrorism ITTL is that there will not be an attack on 9/11/2001, and not because we have Gore elected or something and suddenly magically the attacks are stopped.
It's the old NASA rope-a-dope. Once a program is in place - and supporting jobs in key districts - it is much more difficult to get rid of. It's also easier to accept expansions (see the Voyager program in our timeline). I assume NASA is doing the usual budget low-balling estimates as it is...
They're estimating the budgets and schedules accurately as well as they're able to without having a specific mission mode in mind. It's less that they're aiming to milk more money out of it than that the adaptions you have to make to squeeze a moon mission into Saturn H03-sized chunks means you end up developing about 85% of the equipment a base needs, and NASA's been taught ITTL the benefit of incremental development--so they're hoping maybe in 10 years or so as the initial set of lunar flights are wrapping up, they might be able to leverage an expansion into the permanent base they weren't authoized to offocially aim for in the 1990 authorization. Will they get that? We'll have to see in Part III, won't we? :)

If you push this timeline far enough for Constellation implementation, I'll be curious to see how robust you make the infrastructure. We all know how many close calls Apollo had...rescue options are hard enough in LEO, but anyone stranded on the Moon or in lunar orbit is 240K miles plus away from Mr. Goodwrench. A fatal accident in lunar environs could easily call Constellation into question.
I agree about the value of redundancy, and one thing that truth has noticed in taking the lead on lunar mission research is the change over the years in things like minimal accepted reserves and maximum accepted radiation limits. Part of the reason that going back to the moon has gotten a bit harder is we've gotten a lot less willing to accept risks of loss of crew. As far as "if we push this TL far enough"....well, we've outlined the posts which will make up Part III, the matter that remains is just writing it, and filling in some of the smaller details as we go. We will be going on haitus after next week's post finishes off Part II, but we will be back once Part III is ready in a few months, barring any major personal catastophes on the part of truth or myself.
 
pi,

They're estimating the budgets and schedules accurately as well as they're able to without having a specific mission mode in mind. It's less that they're aiming to milk more money out of it than that the adaptions you have to make to squeeze a moon mission into Saturn H03-sized chunks means you end up developing about 85% of the equipment a base needs, and NASA's been taught ITTL the benefit of incremental development--so they're hoping maybe in 10 years or so as the initial set of lunar flights are wrapping up, they might be able to leverage an expansion into the permanent base they weren't authoized to offocially aim for in the 1990 authorization. Will they get that? We'll have to see in Part III, won't we? :)

And I'm looking forward to it.

Well put on the political value of incremental development.

It helps that the Saturn family is not the technological dead end that STS was.

Some funding is necessarily tied up in Freedom maintenance and use. What's the projected lifespan NASA has in mind for it? 20 years?

I agree about the value of redundancy, and one thing that truth has noticed in taking the lead on lunar mission research is the change over the years in things like minimal accepted reserves and maximum accepted radiation limits. Part of the reason that going back to the moon has gotten a bit harder is we've gotten a lot less willing to accept risks of loss of crew. As far as "if we push this TL far enough"....

One of reasons why Apollo is so awe-inspiring is the staggering risks that were taken, risks that we can hardly imagine now, barring some extinction level asteroid inbound. From procedural risks like all-up testing on the Saturn V, to the primitive main computers (with no backups), the nonexistent fuel reserves, the not much larger life support reserves, the insanely toxic hypergolic fuels, the minimal experience of long duration spaceflight . . . it was a remarkably self-confident society that could tolerate such risk-taking and expenditure; only the Soviet program (operating on totalitarian principles and ancient Russian indifference to human life) makes it look remotely conservative. That doesn't exist in the 1990's, or today.

So you are right, it is a bit harder to do now, even as the technology has gotten better and a knowledge of operating in space is more considerable.
 
P.S. Will we be seeing anything like the LEV?

zlev.jpg
 
P.S. Will we be seeing anything like the LEV?

zlev.jpg

I doubt it. Personally, I see something that is far closer to OTL's Orion/Altair Combo, with the obvious differences brought on by a still-in-service Apollo Saturn MultiBody Family.


One of reasons why Apollo is so awe-inspiring is the staggering risks that were taken, risks that we can hardly imagine now, barring some extinction level asteroid inbound. From procedural risks like all-up testing on the Saturn V, to the primitive main computers (with no backups), the nonexistent fuel reserves, the not much larger life support reserves, the insanely toxic hypergolic fuels, the minimal experience of long duration spaceflight . . . it was a remarkably self-confident society that could tolerate such risk-taking and expenditure; only the Soviet program (operating on totalitarian principles and ancient Russian indifference to human life) makes it look remotely conservative. That doesn't exist in the 1990's, or today.

Very true. In fact, IOTL, every single Apollo Mission had some sort of fault to it. Some minor, others more serious.


Apollo 7 - Head Colds for the crew, made them very ratty and irritable during their 11-day mission.

Apollo 8 - Borman's Stomach Bug that could have reduced it to just Circumlunar.

Apollo 9 - Again, vomiting nearly saw the mission scrubbed.

Apollo 10 - Miscommunication sent Snoopy reeling and it very nearly crashed before they corrected their mistake.

Apollo 11 - Landing computer overloaded intermittently, and they were sent several Kilometres off-course into a boulder field, landing with barely more than 20 seconds of Descent Stage Propellant left - at 30% thrust IIRC.

Apollo 12 - Lightning struck the Saturn V during the 1st Stage burn which knocked off the Fuel Cell Buses. Only an obscure switch that Al Bean knew of - Secondary Condition Electronics to Auxiliary (SCE-Aux) - let them continue the mission.

Apollo 13 - The best remembered. Damaged Wiring in O2 Tank 1 sparked during a cryo-stir and crippled the CSM. Use of LEM allowed crew to survive the aborted mission.

Apollo 14 - Docking problems with the LEM during transposition and docking, though did not reoccur. Additionally, suspected loose metal kept tripping the LEM Abort Programme. Tricked the computer into thinking it was already in the Abort Programme in order to continue the mission.

Apollo 15 - A piece of wire worked its way into one of the SPS switches causing it to short. Redundancy in it meant they could operate the SPS without it.

Apollo 16 - Erroneous readings resulted in Guidance Programme Gimbal Lock during TLI Coast phase. Yaw oscillations of service propulsion system during CSM LLO Circularisation. Result was mission duration reduction of 1 day.

Apollo 17 - Lunar Rover suffered a damaged fender, though this was repaired on site.


Clearly, there were a massive risk factor that they were willing to take with Apollo, though if you were to compare it to what the USSR was willing to do, then all of the aforementioned problems amount to barely more than a papercut by way of comparison.
 
Bahamut,

I doubt it. Personally, I see something that is far closer to OTL's Orion/Altair Combo, with the obvious differences brought on by a still-in-service Apollo Saturn MultiBody Family.

I doubt it, too, for the same reason.

I just thought it was noteworthy since it was, in our own timeline, the most notable NASA lunar planning that happened at that point in time.

Back to Apollo: By my count, five missions (10,11,12,13,14), all moon shots of some kind, suffered mission critical failures, ones that came extremely close to loss of mission and even crew. Only 13 is really known about, since its failure was the most spectacular, and actually did end the mission.

Which is something to think about for any speculation that NASA might have continued or even extended the lunar exploration program. The machines were engineering marvels, the managers and crew enormously proficient, but every time they went to the Moon, they were rolling the dice, given the constraints of the technology and the equipment. In short, we must say of Apollo what Admiral Spruance once said of the U.S. victory at the Battle of Midway: “brilliance shot with good luck." Very good luck.

What would have happened had an Apollo 19 or a LESA mission gone fatally wrong? Eyes Turned Skywards doesn't explore that possibility, because it chooses the much more likely non-STS path of Apollo derived ELV's and LEO stations in 1973-1991. But it would be an interesting, and sobering, alt-history experiment to think about what an extended Apollo lunar program might have suffered - which, I tend to think, it would have suffered, had it lasted long enough.
 
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on LEV
please don't take, those fancy multi engine design form 1990s, there get dam unstable if one engine failed!
and at LM one engine design work perfect, so why not same for LEV ?
 
on LEV
please don't take, those fancy multi engine design form 1990s, there get dam unstable if one engine failed!
and at LM one engine design work perfect, so why not same for LEV ?

The Apollo LEM used a Pressure-Fed Hypergolic Engine, the simplest possible design that was determined to be the most effective means with the available tech.

I'd expect TTL's new Lunar Lander to use a LOX/LH2 Descent Stage - most likely an RL-10 derivative. Where not only is engine failure is decidedly more likely, but it has to take the entire ACT/Lander Combo into Lunar Orbit, and then the Lander to the Lunar Surface. With an auto-gimbal feature to keep the thrust 'even' should one of them give out during a burn, such a risk is substantially mitigated, at the cost of more mass, complexity, and cost.

It's basically a battle between simplicity and redundancy. And I'd suspect redundancy would win the day.
 
Apollo 12 - Lightning struck the Saturn V during the 1st Stage burn which knocked off the Fuel Cell Buses. Only an obscure switch that Al Bean knew of - Secondary Condition Electronics to Auxiliary (SCE-Aux) - let them continue the mission.

Well, Al Bean was part of it, but John Aaron made that call--both of them were vital to saving Apollo 12. Can't forget the people on the ground.

The biggest problem that the Apollo architecture, and all of the 1960s architectures had was radiation protection. Understandable, since it isn't possible to get an accurate idea of what sorts of radiation issues you face without going into space, so they had very little data, but they just didn't provide enough protection, whether against routine or extraordinary threats. Worst case, astronauts in a continued program get hit by a '72-class (or, worse, Carrington-class) superflare while exposed--in the CSM transiting home, doing a long-range surface expedition, whatever. The acute does would be...bad. Not necessarily a certain death, but very very bad. Best case, veterans having done a couple of tours have a weirdly high rate of cancer, heart disease, cataracts, etc. some years after they retire. It's quieter (also to some extent the actual case), but...
 
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