Eyes Turned Skywards

Yeah, but that's including R&D costs, which neopeius specifically said to except. In that case, you can find the cost per flight in any given year by taking the amount budgeted for Shuttle ops and dividing by number of missions. The costs for 2009 were roughly $3 billion for 5 launches, giving a cost per flight of $600 million. Regardless, comparing that with the ~$250 million cost of an Ariane 5 (which actually exceeds the Shuttle's payload) or the $60 million cost of a Falcon 9 (which should do the same once it gets the Merlin 1D upgrade) and the difference between $1.2 billion and $600 million doesn't seem like a lot. Anyway, this is kind of off-topic, isn't it?

It is, but good for comparison purposes.

Back to topic though. I wonder what the Reagan years are gonna be like ITTL? Since it's about that time, and Reagan was known for wanting to face the USSR head-on where he could. I'd expect to see Space becoming a battleground - metaphorically speaking - again. And with no STS, but Saturn V tech still in use, I see Man On Mars entering the fray again. Only this time, it's odds of lifting off the design board - never mind the Launch Pad - are gonna be improved.
 
I've fallen behind in reading this TL, so please forgive me for the antiquity of the posts I quote:

the Chrysler-built first stage with its multitude of tanks and 8 H-1 engines would be replaced with a new Boeing-built first stage using a common-bulkhead design and mounting a single F-1A engine,

I didn't know that a common bulkhead between RP-1 and LOX was possible. I thought the temperature difference was too great?

have lead many historians to mark the end of ASTP II as the start of a second era of competition in space.

Intriguing. :D

Also, you mention three major space advocacy groups. There's NSO, O'Neill's people, so who are the last group?

Re: Shuttle Costs: According to NASA's website, a Shuttle flight cost some $450 million. The NSS says that a Delta IV Heavy costs some $435 million. I'm not sure what to make of that. :confused:

Congratulations on a great timeline! I look forward to seeing the next update!
 
I've fallen behind in reading this TL, so please forgive me for the antiquity of the posts I quote:

I didn't know that a common bulkhead between RP-1 and LOX was possible. I thought the temperature difference was too great?

It can be done. But a lot of insulation is needed in order to prevent Kerosene freezing and LOX boiling due to the ~140 degree C difference between the two propellants. A net mass saving should still be possible though.


Re: Shuttle Costs: According to NASA's website, a Shuttle flight cost some $450 million. The NSS says that a Delta IV Heavy costs some $435 million. I'm not sure what to make of that. :confused:

Congratulations on a great timeline! I look forward to seeing the next update!

That depends on the year. Since a lot of the costs involve preparations and maintennance, a high flight rate generally means lower per-launch costs.
 
Also, you mention three major space advocacy groups. There's NSO, O'Neill's people, so who are the last group?
Well, NSO is supporting and informing about planetary science and NASA's LEO stuff , the Lunar Society is about space utilization, specifically SSPS and lunar tube colonies...do you see a major destination missing? If I were you and I didn't see it, my face might be a bit red. (Sorry about the puns, it's Mars.)

Re: Shuttle Costs: According to NASA's website, a Shuttle flight cost some $450 million. The NSS says that a Delta IV Heavy costs some $435 million. I'm not sure what to make of that. :confused:
That depends on the year. Since a lot of the costs involve preparations and maintennance, a high flight rate generally means lower per-launch costs.
To elaborate, basically there's a cost to keeping the people on payroll and the site operating--the launch pad, plus all the other steps in the supply chain. Those costs are pretty constant, whether you fly 10 flights or none. For shuttle, these fixed costs were on the order of a billion or so.

The other component in costs is marginal cost, the cost for a single flight's worth of hardware. This is likely what NASA means by their $450 million figure.

However, the total cost per mission is that marginal cost plus some portion of the fixed costs (depending on flight rate). So which of these costs is "the cost"? Depends on who you ask. Add up all the costs, fixed plus marginal, to get a program cost and include years with no flights like the Shuttle stand-downs, and you can get big numbers like the $1.2 billion/flight. Just take the marginal cost, and it's much lower. If you're a commercial company, you need to look at the total cost per flight, because you not only need for every flight to pay for its own hardware but also for the fixed costs to be paid at the end of the year.

It's very pedantic, but the long and short of it is that no matter how you figure it Shuttle is too expensive. Even that $450 million low-end NASA figure that you saw, Polish Eagle, is way more per kg than the Delta IV Heavy--DIVH throws about 20 tons, Shuttle manages about 15 on a good day. Actually, Delta's pretty pricey itself--most commercial payloads in that range fly on Ariane 5 ($250ish million) or Proton ($100ish, but quality's lower). No matter how you figure it, Shuttle comes off as costing like the heavy lifter it could be, while only providing the lift of a medium it out-costs by a factor of four or so.
 
Well, NSO is supporting and informing about planetary science and NASA's LEO stuff , the Lunar Society is about space utilization, specifically SSPS and lunar tube colonies...do you see a major destination missing? If I were you and I didn't see it, my face might be a bit red. (Sorry about the puns, it's Mars.)

I guessed that that would be the case. Only real questions left are:

  1. Will it happen?
  2. If so. Then How?
I think I already know the answer to question 1, so that just leaves question two to be answered.




To elaborate, basically there's a cost to keeping the people on payroll and the site operating--the launch pad, plus all the other steps in the supply chain. Those costs are pretty constant, whether you fly 10 flights or none. For shuttle, these fixed costs were on the order of a billion or so.

The other component in costs is marginal cost, the cost for a single flight's worth of hardware. This is likely what NASA means by their $450 million figure.

However, the total cost per mission is that marginal cost plus some portion of the fixed costs (depending on flight rate). So which of these costs is "the cost"? Depends on who you ask. Add up all the costs, fixed plus marginal, to get a program cost and include years with no flights like the Shuttle stand-downs, and you can get big numbers like the $1.2 billion/flight. Just take the marginal cost, and it's much lower. If you're a commercial company, you need to look at the total cost per flight, because you not only need for every flight to pay for its own hardware but also for the fixed costs to be paid at the end of the year.

The other question is this. Is that £450m/launch cost for Boeing Delta IV Heavy its total cost or unit - marginal - cost? This source puts the unit cost at $254m/launch in 2004 Dollars.


It's very pedantic, but the long and short of it is that no matter how you figure it Shuttle is too expensive. Even that $450 million low-end NASA figure that you saw, Polish Eagle, is way more per kg than the Delta IV Heavy--DIVH throws about 20 tons, Shuttle manages about 15 on a good day. Actually, Delta's pretty pricey itself--most commercial payloads in that range fly on Ariane 5 ($250ish million) or Proton ($100ish, but quality's lower). No matter how you figure it, Shuttle comes off as costing like the heavy lifter it could be, while only providing the lift of a medium it out-costs by a factor of four or so.

Using the same source quoted, The Delta IV-H has a maximum payload of 25,800Kg to a 185x185Km Orbit at 28.5 Degrees Inclination. STS, post Challenger saw a payload of 24,000Kg to the same orbit. In order to get a usable payload into the ISS orbit, they were forced to reduce the mass of the ET by 3,500Kg which directly translated into 3,500Kg more payload STS according to this source.



In a completely unrelated - yet very much on the - topic. I happened to come across this, where it looks like the bulk - if not all - the hardware is either NASA, ESA, or JAXA built. Will be interesting to see what the redesigned Freedom-esque Space Station will be like.
 
Well, NSO is supporting and informing about planetary science and NASA's LEO stuff , the Lunar Society is about space utilization, specifically SSPS and lunar tube colonies...do you see a major destination missing? If I were you and I didn't see it, my face might be a bit red. (Sorry about the puns, it's Mars.)

Thought so. Though I can't imagine them taking the name of the Lunar people ITTL. Organization and Society are taken, Association seems out... "The Mars League"?
 
I guessed that that would be the case. Only real questions left are:

  1. Will it happen?
  2. If so. Then How?
I think I already know the answer to question 1, so that just leaves question two to be answered.
Ah, that would be telling, wouldn't it? :)
The other question is this. Is that £450m/launch cost for Boeing Delta IV Heavy its total cost or unit - marginal - cost? This source puts the unit cost at $254m/launch in 2004 Dollars.
$450 million is probably the total mission cost, with $254 million being the marginal cost, but again it's hard to say because sources are often non-specific about what type of costs they're referring to and what sort of flight rate they assume. This would indicate a large fixed cost being defrayed over not many missions, which I'd expect from the Delta IV. It and Atlas V were designed for a much higher flight rate than they've seen, and high flight rates often result in designing for higher fixed costs and lower marginal cost--then if you can't meet the flight rate, the fixed cost portion can end up swamping any savings you got from accepting them. Titan III had the same issue, as (arguably) did Shuttle: it was never cheap, but if it'd flown more like 6-8 times a year as opposed to 4, the additional spreading of fixed costs could have brought the total cost down a lot, though still never to something reasonable.
In a completely unrelated - yet very much on the - topic. I happened to come across this, where it looks like the bulk - if not all - the hardware is either NASA, ESA, or JAXA built. Will be interesting to see what the redesigned Freedom-esque Space Station will be like.
Ah, I was wondering if someone was going to finally see that. Yeah, that was my first draft model for Freedom ITTL before butterflies ended up completely changing its LV. If anyone wants hints for the future, there's some in there if you cross-reference with the opening post. I really need to get to work on rebuilding that model, but things keep coming up.
Thought so. Though I can't imagine them taking the name of the Lunar people ITTL. Organization and Society are taken, Association seems out... "The Mars League"?
Maybe. It's unlikely to be exactly the OTL Mars Society anyway, just as the NSO and the Lunar Society aren't exactly what they were OTL, and being further out from the PoD means butterflies for major figures--Zubrin in particular may end up radically different. Still, we left the note because we were sure someone would come to fill that slot.
 
Post 19: Beginning of Hubble
Sorry this is up a bit late, I've been working on writing and lost track of time.

Eyes turned Skyward, Post #19

Magazine advertisement, background is a composite of image of girl on-stage in school play in upper left fading into the “Pillars of Creation” on the lower right, with following text:

(Upper left) Whether it's the birth of a star...

(Lower right) or the birth of a star...

(Lower center)Kodak is there

(Sample ad copy from Kodak's "Universal" campaign, 1986-1991)

The attraction of a space telescope over a ground telescope lie mainly in two areas. First, it is immune to the vagaries of the atmosphere, above all the phenomenon of turbulence, or "seeing," caused by constant, tiny fluctuations in the atmosphere above a telescope. While ideally a telescope will be limited in its maximum possible resolution only by the size of its optics, in the presence of seeing large astronomical telescopes behave as if they are much smaller than they actually are. Although large telescopes still offer advantages (mostly in terms of light-gathering area) that make them worth using, the presence of seeing sharply limits their capability compared to their theoretical limits. In space, however, there is no atmosphere, and therefore no seeing. In theory, this could allow a 10-20 fold increase in resolution, even with a relatively small 2.5 meter mirror, allowing astronomers to gather more detail on known objects and see smaller objects than had previously been possible. Secondly, a space telescope can detect many more wavelengths of light, and detect less intense sources of those wavelengths, than a ground telescope can. Even on a perfectly clear day, the atmosphere absorbs or reflects back into space about a fifth of incoming solar radiation. For many other wavelengths of radiation, such as infrared or high-energy bands, the atmosphere is practically opaque. Dim sources, such as distant galaxies, or sources which radiate primarily in those blocked bands, cannot be detected at the ground at all, requiring telescopes above the atmosphere to get even a glimpse.

These advantages had been identified by the American astronomer Lyman Spitzer as early as 1946, and amateur astronomers of a science-fictional bent had doubtlessly thought of these capabilities even earlier, but the technology of the time was simply nowhere near advanced enough to actually launch such a mission. Instead, astronomers had to accept the presence of seeing in ground-based telescopes, and rely on the glimpses of otherwise blocked radiation afforded by sounding rockets and balloon flights through the 1950s. However, with the launch of Sputnik the idea of putting a telescope in orbit no longer seemed so remote or difficult. Less than a year after Yuri Gagarin's first flight, NASA launched the first space observatory, dedicated to watching not distant galaxies but instead the Sun, the Orbiting Solar Observatory. In conjunction with ground observations and several other satellites, these would make the most in-depth study of the Sun over a single 11-year solar cycle in history. The eight OSO missions gave birth to the solar telescope that formed the scientific centerpiece of Skylab, and led directly to the network of space-based solar observatories that operate today, providing advance warning of solar flares and activity that can have significant economic impacts on Earth. However, they also helped validate the concept of the space observatory in general, leading to the Orbiting Astronomical Observatories later in the decade. These were the first of their kind, and the spectacular success of OAO-2 and OAO-3, along with the contemporary US-Italian Small Astronomical Satellite program, further proved the value of space-based observations. Like the OSOs, the OAOs were ultraviolet and x-ray observatories, focused on observing those wavelengths not visible at Earth's surface. Combined with indefatigable support by Spitzer, however, the idea of orbiting a large, visible-light telescope had gained traction, and in 1968 NASA officially started working on the idea. At the time, plans for the "Large Space Telescope" involved a 3 meter main mirror and extensive on-orbit servicing, all allowed by the planned "space shuttle". Additionally, while mainly oriented at visible observations, the LST (as it was then known) would also be capable of some ultraviolet and infrared observations, effectively allowing for three telescopes in one package.

With the demise of the space shuttle, however, and continuing budget pressures, these plans were increasingly scaled back. The first idea to be dropped was servicing. Although certainly possible through making the telescope part of a future space station, the relatively dirty vacuum surrounding any human-occupied space vehicle and the vibrations caused by human movement meant that it simply wouldn't be worth it. This would limit the telescope's operational lifetime to only 5-10 years before too many critical parts would likely fail to continue observation, and would also mean that the telescope would become increasingly out-of-date by the time it was actually retired. Worse, any difficulties with the instruments that could otherwise be corrected would have to be accepted by the astronomers. Still, it would offer significant advantages over existing telescopes, enough that there was little resistance to the need from the astronomical community. Next to fall was the size of the mirror, which acted as the major control of the overall cost, due both to the cost of launch and the cost of manufacturing such a large object to such precise tolerances. Eventually, a 2.5 meter mirror was agreed upon. While not as large as the original design, it offered significant savings and (when combined with the LST's unique environment) would still make the observatory top-class in terms of observing ability. Mirror fabrication was handled by the team of Eastman Kodak and Itek, who produced two separate mirrors that were then cross-checked against each other, ensuring that they were correctly fabricated to a hitherto unheard-of precision. Their competitor, Perkin-Elmer, had offered a strong bid relying on technologically advanced computer-controlled grinding machines, but the great experience of Kodak and Itek in space observation (each had been responsible for optics systems on board US spy satellites) and their use of proven techniques eventually won out over the promising but risky system proposed by the relative newcomer. Finally, an agreement was made with the nascent European Space Agency to provide some funds and materials for the telescope, in particular the solar panels responsible for powering its systems, in exchange for providing a permanent share of the observing time to European astronomers. The only one of the original capabilities the telescope would possess without modification was the ability to observe at infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths as well as visible wavelengths. As the project gradually picked up steam, the telescope finally acquired a real name: Hubble, after the famous American astronomer who demonstrated that the universe was not static, but expanding over time.
 
Interesting. And I'm certain that Hubble's orbit will be about the same as OTL Hubble - about 570Km at 28.5 degrees IIRC - where stationkeeping delta-v is a lot less than at even 400Km altitude, and far enough away from LEO debris to negate those issues - for the most part.

Now I don't know the full history of Hubble so a lot of this is speculation on my part. I'm guessing you switched suppliers for the mirror. Since servicing will be at best, extremely difficult - as was the case OTL - they need to be absolutely certain that it will work on the first try, hence, proven methods, which leads me to believe that the error that almost killed off Hubble in orbit IOTL won't be happening here. I'm also willing to guess that since TTL Hubble won't be so much harder to service, they'll simply allow it to die off after perhaps 10 years, and possibly replace it with one using newer - though still proven - technologies and perhaps greater capabilities.
 
If Hubble need not be servicable, might its design cost be lower than it was IOTL?

I think the 'disposable telescope' approach might be better than the IOTL path. Sure, the Shuttle missions repaired Hubble, but if that $1.2 billion per Shuttle flight figure is correct, then for the cost of a servicing mission, one could have built another telescope (probably for less than that cost, given that the R&D for the replacement is already done).
 
Interesting. And I'm certain that Hubble's orbit will be about the same as OTL Hubble - about 570Km at 28.5 degrees IIRC - where stationkeeping delta-v is a lot less than at even 400Km altitude, and far enough away from LEO debris to negate those issues - for the most part.
It may be a little higher, since that lengthens the period and in turn means slightly fewer dark/light solar cycles (and thus hot/cold thermal cycles). OTL the constant thermal stresses were a big problem in design. They can't reduce that a ton, but they can do somethings about it.

Now I don't know the full history of Hubble so a lot of this is speculation on my part. I'm guessing you switched suppliers for the mirror.
Yes, we did. OTL Kodak did bid, but was turned down in favor of Perkin-Elmer who'd developed a new computer-controlled grinding technique. OTL, Perkin-Elmer was a bit cash-strapped and fell behind a lot, and since they messed up the construction of their null corrector (a calibration tool used to check the shape of the mirror), they ground the entire mirror to the wrong shape. ITTL, NASA selects Kodak and their proven techniques because it'll be very hard to service, and there's not going to be that issue. (Kodak actually ground a backup mirror IOTL, which didn't have the issues, but since the problem was only found after the telescope was up in space, nothing could be done).
I'm also willing to guess that since TTL Hubble won't be so much harder to service, they'll simply allow it to die off after perhaps 10 years, and possibly replace it with one using newer - though still proven - technologies and perhaps greater capabilities.
This is indeed roughly the case. They could service it, but they'd basically have to preplace the servicing pallet and new equipment with an Aardvark, then fly an Apollo mission to actually do the service. It'd be very expensive and labor intensive, and they just decide not to bother--when it fails, they'll just do another one. More of this TL's tendency towards incremental improvement.
 
If Hubble need not be servicable, might its design cost be lower than it was IOTL?
Some. Not hugely. The lower costs of not having to make all the major components space-accesible may be countered by the added cost of added redundancies and upped standards to ensure long life without repair.

I think the 'disposable telescope' approach might be better than the IOTL path. Sure, the Shuttle missions repaired Hubble, but if that $1.2 billion per Shuttle flight figure is correct, then for the cost of a servicing mission, one could have built another telescope (probably for less than that cost, given that the R&D for the replacement is already done).
Well, like I said, what you want to call the cost of a mission depends a lot on what context it's in. For NASA, the cost of "add a mission" may indeed be on the order of the marginal cost or the share of the annual budget: $450-800 million. Still, I have seen people say it would have been better to just fly another telescope compared to all the servicing flights.

On another note, I'm a bit sad no one's commented on the ad copy at the front of the update. Most of this update's content and text was truth's work, but that part was my contribution. I guess it's good I'm an engineer, not an ad man. :)
 
On another note, I'm a bit sad no one's commented on the ad copy at the front of the update. Most of this update's content and text was truth's work, but that part was my contribution. I guess it's good I'm an engineer, not an ad man. :)

Sorry. I kinda just glossed over that part. But given what they got to do TTL, they'd have to be CEO'd by Peter Griffin to not take advantage of it.
 
Sorry. I kinda just glossed over that part. But given what they got to do TTL, they'd have to be CEO'd by Peter Griffin to not take advantage of it.

Yeah, Perkin-Elmer milked the Hubble contract for all it was worth (seriously, check out some of the ads they ran in the 1980-1986 timeframe. It's really funny in light of the later problems). But they're just a specialty sort of firm that scientists, engineers, that sort of person knows about, not someone with a big "man on the street" presence. So take Perkin's attitude towards self-promotion, mix with really pretty photographs (the usual Hubble sort of thing, like, ah, the Pillars of Creation!), and sprinkle with people actually knowing who Kodak is...well, it makes for a beautiful ad campaign!
 
So I know it's not Wednesday, but I just finished something and wanted to show it off. I've been taking advantage of the holidays to get back into my modeling files for Eyes turned Skyward, and I have produced a short video showing a fly around of Spacelab in a configuration from a little later in the TL.

Visible in this image: the main orbital workshop (the modifications to the oxygen tank, of course, are not readily visible from the outside, but do note both solar panel wings), the modified Multiple Docking Adapter module, the station's Airlock Module (at MDA Zenith), a Block III Apollo (MDA Nadir), and an Aardvark (MDA-axial). Sorry about the resolution, but I just wanted to do this quickly, so I turned down the resolution so I could render the video in under half an hour. Comments, question, flames?
 
So I know it's not Wednesday, but I just finished something and wanted to show it off. I've been taking advantage of the holidays to get back into my modeling files for Eyes turned Skyward, and I have produced a short video showing a fly around of Spacelab in a configuration from a little later in the TL.

Visible in this image: the main orbital workshop (the modifications to the oxygen tank, of course, are not readily visible from the outside, but do note both solar panel wings), the modified Multiple Docking Adapter module, the station's Airlock Module (at MDA Zenith), a Block III Apollo (MDA Nadir), and an Aardvark (MDA-axial). Sorry about the resolution, but I just wanted to do this quickly, so I turned down the resolution so I could render the video in under half an hour. Comments, question, flames?

kool vid. hope to see more soon. [ subcribed here and youtube! ]

if ya want to, would ya like to post a screenshot of a finished verision in my thread?:cool:
 
Hello! I just finished reading this thread this morning. I too am of the mindset that we made a mistake in dropping Apollo in favor of the shuttle and alternate timelines featuring evolved Apollo hardware have long fascintated me.

If I may, I have a couple of nit-picks:

You originally listed Vance Brand as Vince, but I see that you subsequently corrected this. However, your Vince key must have remained depressed as you listed Dr. Lind's first name as Vince, not Don (his first name consisted of only the three letters, it was not short for Donald). Dr. Lind, even though selected as a pilot astronaut, was a scientist is his own right, holding a doctorate in High Energy Nuclear Physics.

Is it safe to assume the Skylab 3 crew was the same as the OTL?

I was also interested to see that you dropped Jerry Carr from the Skylab 4 mission in favor of Ron Evans. Any particular reason for this?

The Skylab 5 flight was a great addition and in the OTL could have been done at very little additional expense. If it had actually been flown, it might have been able to give the station enough of a reboost to keep it in orbit long enough for the shuttle to visit it.

Long ago I put down on paper my own Alt-Skylab scenario and it strangely paralleled yours. One solution I came up with was using the LOX tank and the aft end of the station as a another docking port, in addition to those mounted on the MDA. It would have made an excellent location for an airlock/Soyuz docking module. The radiator mounted there could be moved to the side of the station. You would still need some means of removing the heat generated by the electronics inside the station.

My studies also made me a huge fan of the Saturn INT-20 configuration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_INT-20), although I do like your Saturn IC.

Please keep up the great work! Really enjoying this. :)
 
Hello! I just finished reading this thread this morning. I too am of the mindset that we made a mistake in dropping Apollo in favor of the shuttle and alternate timelines featuring evolved Apollo hardware have long fascintated me.
Thank you for the compliments, I hope you'll continue to enjoy it as we carry it forward.

If I may, I have a couple of nit-picks:
I'm sorry, nitpicking is a bannable offense on this board. :) Seriously, always happy to answer questions.

You originally listed Vance Brand as Vince, but I see that you subsequently corrected this. However, your Vince key must have remained depressed as you listed Dr. Lind's first name as Vince, not Don (his first name consisted of only the three letters, it was not short for Donald). Dr. Lind, even though selected as a pilot astronaut, was a scientist is his own right, holding a doctorate in High Energy Nuclear Physics.
Whoops. If you'll point out which post(s) those errors were in, I'll correct them if it's still editable (there's a 30-day window that may already have passed). I appologise if I've bad-mouthed Dr. Lind's abilities, the point is noted--I knew many of the pilot astronauts in fact had post-grad degrees, but most of them were in engineering. High Energy Nuclear Physics is a bit of an outlier, and interesting for it.

Is it safe to assume the Skylab 3 crew was the same as the OTL?
Prime crew was the same, backup crew was different due to different pilot assignments and butterflies from Apollo 18.

I was also interested to see that you dropped Jerry Carr from the Skylab 4 mission in favor of Ron Evans. Any particular reason for this?
There may have been when we did it but unfortunately I don't recall now. It may have had something to do with the fact that whereas OTL Skylab 4 was the last intended mission to the station until Shuttle and much of NASA's attention was focused on that development, here it's the model for Spacelab and other future stations. This additional attention makes them less willing to throw an entirely-rookie crew up on Skylab 4. Unfortunately, if Carr still retires at a similar time as OTL, this means he may retire without a flight.

The Skylab 5 flight was a great addition and in the OTL could have been done at very little additional expense. If it had actually been flown, it might have been able to give the station enough of a reboost to keep it in orbit long enough for the shuttle to visit it.
It could have been flown, maybe. However, while not using the CSM engine to raise the orbit may look foolish in hindsight, remember they thought the orbit was stable until '83--the solar activity that caused it to come down early was unanticipated at the time that a Skylab 5 mission would have been planned. It could have been done with OTL hardware, and it certainly could with hardware from this TL; the maneuver they did with the Aardvark to de-orbit it could just have easily lofted it to last a few more years, but here they've got no reason--Spacelab will be ready in a few years anyway.

Long ago I put down on paper my own Alt-Skylab scenario and it strangely paralleled yours. One solution I came up with was using the LOX tank and the aft end of the station as a another docking port, in addition to those mounted on the MDA. It would have made an excellent location for an airlock/Soyuz docking module. The radiator mounted there could be moved to the side of the station. You would still need some means of removing the heat generated by the electronics inside the station.
The bigger issue than the radiator is the station's attitude thrusters and associated propellant tanks, many of which were located right there at the aft end of the station. Moving those wouldn't be trivial, and it's certainly more work than doing an MDA with three ports instead of two. Using the LOX tank is a pretty obvious move once you've given them some other way to deal with their trash.

My studies also made me a huge fan of the Saturn INT-20 configuration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_INT-20), although I do like your Saturn IC.
I like the INT-20 a lot, as well as the better-known INT-21 (which actually gets nearly as much payload as the three-stage Saturn , due to how little the SIVB did during launch--Skylab had something like 30 tons of margin on the LV) but they both share a big issue: they require averting the end of S1-C production that OTL occurred even before the lunar landing. That takes a bigger or at least earlier PoD than Eyes Turned Skyward has. I'd love to see a well-done timeline where someone pulls that off, particularly without the usual "oh, Vietnam doesn't happen and so there's more money for everyone!" I didn't think much of the Saturn 1C when we first laid it out, it was just a stepping-stone to something in the future. However, the more we've messed with it, the more I like it even though the plans for its future have changed.

Please keep up the great work! Really enjoying this. :)
Thank you, we're working on it. Glad to hear you're enjoying it.
 
Check out posts #40 and 71 for the typos. I think you are outside of the editing window.

No offense taken on Don Lind. He was one of the very few of the Pilot Astronauts to have a doctorate prior to being selected (Buzz Aldrin may have been the only other one, will check). He was well thought of at NASA and some consider him to have been a contender for LMP on Apollo 20.

One of the reasons I like the INT-20 is the fact that no new rocket stage R&D would have to be done, and no new production line would have to be stood up. A little wind tunnel work, some avionics changes, shorten the LUT, and voila! I am oversimplifying it somewhat obviously, but in an economically pressed environment it seems to make a lot of sense.

Have you considered NASA's Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System (TDRS)? I think it is vital to the efficient use of any space station. Losing coms and telemetry for significant portions of an orbit is no way to run a station. Is it included in your timeline? In the OTL the first one was launched in 1983.

Thanks again!
 
Check out posts #40 and 71 for the typos. I think you are outside of the editing window.
Yeah, we are sadly. Thanks for pointing it out, though. I may PM a mod and see if there's anything I can about it.

No offense taken on Don Lind. He was one of the very few of the Pilot Astronauts to have a doctorate prior to being selected (Buzz Aldrin may have been the only other one, will check). He was well thought of at NASA and some consider him to have been a contender for LMP on Apollo 20.
Hmm. Interesting. I think given he flew on Skylab 5 ITTL, I may put him on track for a Spacelab command assignment--looks like he could get Spacelab 8 or 9. This would give him the chance to make use of the cosmic ray experiment packages mounted on the ERM.

One of the reasons I like the INT-20 is the fact that no new rocket stage R&D would have to be done, and no new production line would have to be stood up. A little wind tunnel work, some avionics changes, shorten the LUT, and voila! I am oversimplifying it somewhat obviously, but in an economically pressed environment it seems to make a lot of sense.
It does make R&D cost sense, but the stages themselves were expensive though the payload could justify it. The big problem is just keeping the possibility open. By the time in 72 where our TL really starts to diverge, S1-C production has been dead for three years.

Have you considered NASA's Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System (TDRS)? I think it is vital to the efficient use of any space station. Losing coms and telemetry for significant portions of an orbit is no way to run a station. Is it included in your timeline? In the OTL the first one was launched in 1983.
We have considered it, and it should be part of the planning for Spacelab utilization after the launch of the ERM. The satellites may be a bit different than OTL--they may be given more mission delta-v so that they can be launched in groups on Delta 4000 or in even larger groups on Saturn 1C then maneuver independently to their final orbits. I need to think which of those it the better option.
 
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