Eyes Turned Skywards

Hey, I've just noticed a couple things.

1) The Multicore concept uses 60 percent more Ker-Lox per F-1A engine than the Saturn V used per its five F-1 engines. I guess this is per the author's philosophy that for launches from Earth, thrust beats ISP. I estimate a Multicore first stage unit is 30 meters tall whereas the Saturn V's first stage was just under 42, yet 5 Multicore elements hold a lot more kerlox than the whole Saturn V first stage despite the wider diameter.

2) On the other hand, looking at linear dimensions, grouping 4 Multicores around a fifth in the middle means that the width, getting it out the VAB door, is a bit over 14 meters; even allowing separation of the stages a bit still would have it well under 16, versus the Saturn V's 10 meters maximum diameter.

What's the width limit that the current VAB doors can handle? And the height? I've just read online they are 139 meters tall, but it doesn't give the width, only that they were widened 40 feet for the Shuttle system. Many sources give this same information; no one bothers to say how wide they were for Apollo nor how wide they are now OTL!:mad:
 
Hey, I've just noticed a couple things.

1) The Multicore concept uses 60 percent more Ker-Lox per F-1A engine than the Saturn V used per its five F-1 engines. I guess this is per the author's philosophy that for launches from Earth, thrust beats ISP. I estimate a Multicore first stage unit is 30 meters tall whereas the Saturn V's first stage was just under 42, yet 5 Multicore elements hold a lot more kerlox than the whole Saturn V first stage despite the wider diameter.

About 29.5 x 6.6m by my math. And from an earlier post, E stated that the Saturn H03 could barely get out of the VAB on account of it's width, indicating that it was rolled out with the CCBs appearing perpendicular to the Launch Gantry - that's me guessing that it's fitted out in such a manner prior to rollout.

As for LOX/Kerosene loads. Some - very - loose calculations suggest H03 would have about 86% that of the S-IC, while a 5 CCB setup holds a little over 143% the S-IC total. A moot point really, since Zubrin's SuperHeavy isn't gonna be built anytime soon, as best as I can tell.


2) On the other hand, looking at linear dimensions, grouping 4 Multicores around a fifth in the middle means that the width, getting it out the VAB door, is a bit over 14 meters; even allowing separation of the stages a bit still would have it well under 16, versus the Saturn V's 10 meters maximum diameter.

What's the width limit that the current VAB doors can handle? And the height? I've just read online they are 139 meters tall, but it doesn't give the width, only that they were widened 40 feet for the Shuttle system. Many sources give this same information; no one bothers to say how wide they were for Apollo nor how wide they are now OTL!:mad:

Well I'd wager than widening the doors would be a simpler task than making them taller. Maybe that's why the info is so thin.

In any case Shevek, if the VAB could handle the Saturn H03 being rolled out the wide way, then it's a given that they can handle a clustering of 5, and even 7 Saturn CCBs without too much difficulty in that regard. Though I'll admit that there would be a number of other issues to resolve. The Launch Pad itself being a big one, I'm not sure if it was designed to handle over 4,000 Tonnes Thrust, and I definitely believe it wasn't supposed to handle over 5,600 Tonnes Thrust! :eek:
 
About 29.5 x 6.6m by my math. And from an earlier post, E stated that the Saturn H03 could barely get out of the VAB on account of it's width, indicating that it was rolled out with the CCBs appearing perpendicular to the Launch Gantry - that's me guessing that it's fitted out in such a manner prior to rollout.

As for LOX/Kerosene loads. Some - very - loose calculations suggest H03 would have about 86% that of the S-IC, while a 5 CCB setup holds a little over 143% the S-IC total. A moot point really, since Zubrin's SuperHeavy isn't gonna be built anytime soon, as best as I can tell.




Well I'd wager than widening the doors would be a simpler task than making them taller. Maybe that's why the info is so thin.

In any case Shevek, if the VAB could handle the Saturn H03 being rolled out the wide way, then it's a given that they can handle a clustering of 5, and even 7 Saturn CCBs without too much difficulty in that regard. Though I'll admit that there would be a number of other issues to resolve. The Launch Pad itself being a big one, I'm not sure if it was designed to handle over 4,000 Tonnes Thrust, and I definitely believe it wasn't supposed to handle over 5,600 Tonnes Thrust! :eek:

So, 20 meters for the Apollo program, and about 33-35 nowadays? It depends on how they pulled the STS out--one way you have the tank and then the full height of the Orbiter with tail; the other way, the tank plus width of 2 SRBs.

I don't see why the H03 would not be taken out sideways, unless it has to do with how the crawler is oriented to the launch pad at the other end of the trip.

The thread authors can testify I did take note in a PM of all-up weight limits (not specifically mentioning pad thrust, that can probably be beefed up but it's definitely something to consider!) as another constraint on just how much rocket Canaveral can handle without further upgrades (some of which might be practically impossible!)

I'm still interested in Going Nuts and figuring out just how ginormous a payload we can launch playing Legos with the Multibody like this. That's why the amazing efficiency at packing in lots of propellant into a compact volume the Multibody approach achieves; I'd assumed the first stage propellant masses were in proportion to the number of engines re a Saturn V, but no--Multibody uses a whole lot more kerlox per F-1A engine. Yet the standard first stage is indeed apparently about 30 meters high, versus about 42 for the first stage of the Saturn V! Amazing.

And so, replicating and even surpassing a Saturn V's capability may indeed make more sense via 5 standard Multibody cores instead of consolidating them all into one 5-engine core. And yet it comes out of the VAB just fine with no door widening!:D
 
In any case Shevek, if the VAB could handle the Saturn H03 being rolled out the wide way, then it's a given that they can handle a clustering of 5, and even 7 Saturn CCBs without too much difficulty in that regard. Though I'll admit that there would be a number of other issues to resolve. The Launch Pad itself being a big one, I'm not sure if it was designed to handle over 4,000 Tonnes Thrust, and I definitely believe it wasn't supposed to handle over 5,600 Tonnes Thrust! :eek:

According the Boeing "integrated Manned Interplanetary Spacecraft" documents.
they needed A Saturn V-25(S)U, 40 ft Stretch S-IC with 5 x upgraded F-1 (1.8 million pounds thrust) , strengthened standard length S-II with 5xJ-2S.
For heavy payload this Saturn is equipped with 4 Solid booster (4 segment 156 inch ø weight each 1.38 million pound, total lift off thrust 72,338.40 kN

For safety reason the SRB are Not install inside VAB but on Launch pad 39 A B C
the Pads are modified for new task, like High extension on launch platform tower, module device structure (also for NERVA engine check),
they launch platform must be protected for Fire and Sound pressure of SRB and Saturn-IC stage during lift-off
the crawlers require uprating for bigger mass, it have to role from VAB to Pads.
also the launch platform is strengthened to take the heavier Saturn.
oddly the Launch Pad only modification is for to survive the Blast in case the Saturn explode on launch pad or above if
and bigger blast pit for SRB, to take thrust of72,338.40 kN or 7374 tons

in short Launch Pad 39 can take Zubrin Superheavy
 
just got the news that NASA is shutting there Public server down
because of this

Washington, D.C. (March 18, 2013) – Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA), chairman of the House Appropriations subcommittee that funds NASA, today held a press conference revealing a significant new development concerning a Chinese national allegedly involved in security violations at several NASA centers…

NASA should immediately take down all publicly available technical data sources until all documents that have not been subjected to export control review have received such a review and all controlled documents are removed from the system.

so i checkt the NRTS and

Until further notice,
the NTRS system will be unavailable for public access.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you and anticipate
that this site will return to service in the near future.

argh.gif

AAAAAARRGH
 
Wow, lots of activity! Let's see about all this...
Alright then, here's another one! Extrasolar planets!...So what do you have concerning this particular topic, even if the more relevant - read, more Earth-like - extrasolar planets were only really discovered in the latter half of the 2000's.
Unfortunately, there's not a ton to say about extrasolar planets, particularly in the 90s before the instruments get as good as they are today.They will be touched on, but probably in conjunction with other astronomy posts as opposed to something dedicated just to them--we simply lack the information IOTL and they will ITTL through most of part III to say much more specific than, "There are planets around other stars: confirmed."

By the way, the rough dates for Part III are 1989 (Bush's announcement of Constellation) to the first few years of the aughts--there's a couple things that slightly overlap the start of the new millennium.

Hey, I've just noticed a couple things.

1) The Multicore concept uses 60 percent more Ker-Lox per F-1A engine than the Saturn V used per its five F-1 engines. I guess this is per the author's philosophy that for launches from Earth, thrust beats ISP. I estimate a Multicore first stage unit is 30 meters tall whereas the Saturn V's first stage was just under 42, yet 5 Multicore elements hold a lot more kerlox than the whole Saturn V first stage despite the wider diameter.
In part, they use more propellant because they have a lot more thrust--about a 33% improvement. To make up for that, the first stage does have slightly more propellant per F-1A than the Saturn V had per basic F-1. If you normalize by that, the difference isn't as big:

Saturn V, S-IC: 2150 tons prop, 5xF-1, 38 MN vac
Multibody, S-IF/G: 504 tons prop, 1xF-1A, 9.19 MN vac

So the S-IC has about 56.5 kg of prop per Newton of thrust, while the Multibody core has about 54.8. Basically the same. As for heights, the Multibody has a few advantages over Saturn V. First, it's common bulkhead--unlike Saturn V which has two separate tanks, the upper bulkhead of the low tank on multibody is also the lower bulkhead of the upper tank. This lets the same tank volume be shorter. Also, as you'll note, the S-IC has a very long thrust structure (the tanks total only about 100 ft of the 135 ft length). Multibody's thrust structure is shorter. Finally, you underestimated the effect of clustering cores. A single core with the same cross-sectional area as Zubrin's 5-core cluster would have to be 14.7m in diameter, while one matching the tricore would have to be 11.4 m. Result? The stages can fit more propellant into dramatically shorter heights.

As for the VAB, the dimensions of the doors are as follows--and have been since the construction of the building. The doors form an inverted T-shape. The lower rectangle is 149 feet wide and 113 feet high (to allow the crawler to pass through, along with pad-level fittings up on top of the MLP), the rest is 76 feet wide and goes up another 352 feet for a total height of 465 feet. The image below shows how these doors fit several major potential "doorbusters," from Saturn V to Shuttle to Ares V and Saturn Multibody. Note that the Shuttle wings squeak through in the lower part of the "T," hence the doors didn't require alteration. What did require alteration were the doors into the VAB's central transfer aisle--those were widened 40 feet to fit the wings, and an additional area cut for the tail, which is what you're reading about in those sources. (See this image).

VABdoorbusters_zps4038cdc6.png


2) On the other hand, looking at linear dimensions, grouping 4 Multicores around a fifth in the middle means that the width, getting it out the VAB door, is a bit over 14 meters; even allowing separation of the stages a bit still would have it well under 16, versus the Saturn V's 10 meters maximum diameter.
I think you've done your math wrong. A cluster like that has a maximum dimension the same as 3x the core (6.6m), thus the total Saturn H03 width is more like 20.5 meters (19.8 m of stages, plus a bit for spacing). This does, however, still clear even the 23m "narrow" part of the T.

And so, replicating and even surpassing a Saturn V's capability may indeed make more sense via 5 standard Multibody cores instead of consolidating them all into one 5-engine core. And yet it comes out of the VAB just fine with no door widening!:D
Basically, if you did want a Saturn V class using Multibody philosophy, it'd be better to go with a 5-core than a new larger core. Zubrin's right there.
 
seeing this picture
VABdoorbusters_zps4038cdc6.png


i just realize that the Saturn V-25(S)U, rise 463 ft 6 inch above floor of VAB.
they have to raise the roof and it doors of VAB to pass that monster true.
 
Great job, guys! I fell behind for a while and just caught up again, very interesting debate at the conclusion.

One thing I would be interested in seeing in the next part is a summary of how technology has diverged from OTL by perhaps the mid-1990s. A greater scientific understanding of our universe is awesome, but what's changed for the average schlub on the street?
 
Great job, guys! I fell behind for a while and just caught up again, very interesting debate at the conclusion.

One thing I would be interested in seeing in the next part is a summary of how technology has diverged from OTL by perhaps the mid-1990s. A greater scientific understanding of our universe is awesome, but what's changed for the average schlub on the street?

We anticipate covering this in Part III. In the greater scheme of things, though, the changes we've made to space won't do that much for the average American that they would notice relative to OTL; even if there are more satellite dishes on the roofs, it's still fundamentally the same TV industry.
 
I have nothing to add except to say that over the last few days, I've read this from the start, and am looking forward to more :)
Well, thank you, Nazdakka! Welcome aboard, and I hope you'll enjoy Part III when we've got it ready later this year!
 
I have proposal for Part III

The Earth Orbit Rendezvous injection Stage: EORIS

it's launch by Saturn Multibody with Payload with 69131 kg in 430 km orbit at 28.5°.
EORIS consist of four Lox tanks and one LH2 tank with two J-2S engines plus Payload.

first the Lox tanks+RCS module are launch in park orbit, they can stay maximum 163 days, after that the oxygen boils off.
but that give sufficiently time for 7~9 launches (depend what for payload, or a AARDVark is needed to herd the Lox tanks)
then launch of the Payload of 69131 kg (lunar) or higher for Venus or Mars mission.
in case the LH2 tank&engine launch fails, it could wait for a backup. because ones in orbit the hydrogen boils off in 10 days
then the LH2 tank&engine launch rendezvous with Payload and 4 Lox Tanks who dock together, after that the RCS modules are jettisoned from Lox tank.
For Lunar mission launch weight is 402914 kg with Delta v of 6584,93 meter/second
this can bring 69131 kg to moon orbit or even could bring close to Moon surface, then Payload could land it self with 200 meter/second Delta V.
for Venus or Mars Fly-by the payload could bring 138262 kg Payload and 34824 kg Apollo CSM
this payload mass oscillate do to position of Planets.

Note
The J-2S burn the fuel with mixture ratio 4.5
the Payload are module of 69131 kg, were for Venus /Mars mission consist two Module
this Apollo CSM example is a Block II with Mission module 4500 kg as lifeboat and crew return vehicle.
 
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I believe that the technologies that are currently discussed for propellant depots could be used to reduce the boil off.

Already in 1960s they study to reduce the boil off on Orbital fuel depot.

Eoris is low cost approach to the subject, it use existing hardware from US spacecraft and rockets.
 
Already in 1960s they study to reduce the boil off on Orbital fuel depot.

Eoris is low cost approach to the subject, it use existing hardware from US spacecraft and rockets.

Insofar as Orbital Fuel Depots are concerned, they do suffer from not really being in use both IOTL & ITTL.

The closest thing to this would be Space Station refuelling, and that's with Hypergolic Propellant Mixtures. Granted, the principle is the same, but Cryogenic and Hypergolic Propellants aren't really the same thing. A flexible bladder system wouldn't work with LOX or LH2 since they would make it rigid, while a pump needs a positive pressure to function properly.

That's why some have considered designing a Cryogenic Propellant Depot that can be put into a steady spin, as so to supply centrifugal force to allow pumps to work. Combined with Active Refrigeration, a workable propellant depot can be made.

IIRC, LOX is affected by electromagnetism, so another option may exist there.
 
Hello,

I discovered this timeline a couple of months ago via the link from Atomic Rockets, and I absolutely love it! The attention to realism in both hardware and the political and social context puts this head-and-shoulders above any other space-based AH I've ever read, with the possible exception of Stephen Baxter's "Voyage". Thanks for all the entertainment, and long may it continue!

Regarding suggestions for Part III, here are a few thoughts for your consideration:


  • Will we see the same LEO Commsat constellation scenario as in OTL, where industry bet on hundreds of LEO sats for mobile telephony, only to find terrestrial cellular networks developed faster and took the market?


  • Related to the above and SDI (w.r.t. large launch rates), will we see agitation for RLV/SSTO, similar to OTL National Space Plane, Hotol, Saenger, X-33, DC-X, Roton, etc? Without the Shuttle as a counter-example (and therefore with even less of an idea of the reality of RLV), I would expect there to be even more advocates for cheap, frequent RLV launches than was the case in OTL. Will this impact NASA’s Advanced Crew Vehicle development?


  • With NASA running Freedom at the same time as developing a Moon program, will the pressures that led to OTL COTS for private taxi service to the Station occur a decade earlier ITTL?


  • Failures. Though there have been a few incidents (Spacelab-28 being the most obvious), the US space program has been overall quite ‘sunny-day’, especially compared to Europe and Russia, and especially for early launches of new rockets. Although to a degree this correctly reflects better quality control, experience and money on the US side, it would also likely lead to some overconfidence in the US aerospace industry and NASA. Maybe a correction of this will come up?


  • ALH-84001 :)


  • TV Sci-fi. No TNG and cancelled TNV means virtually no sci-fi on TV in the US – maybe Alien Nation still makes it, though hopefully TTL will be spared the War of the Worlds TV show. Will JMS still be shopping around Babylon 5 in the late ‘80s? Will he get more of a hearing for arc-based stories after this was pioneered for a season on TNV (and perhaps some more general interest in shows set on space stations)? similarly, will we see any more Trek spin-offs or movies? Stargate, S:AAB, Earth: Final Conflict? Will seaQuest still exist, and without TNG around will it be more original and not just keep trying to look like TNG underwater?


  • Faster, Better, Cheaper. Presumably there’ll still be budget pressures in the ‘90s (Moon missions sucking NASA funds instead of ISS), but will FBC come about without a high-profile Mars Observer failure (or will there be a TTL equivalent)?


  • ITAR. If China start moving further faster in space, will there be a corresponding earlier fear of Chinese espionage and a related ITAR measure?


  • What’s the state of commercial launch in general in the ‘90s? Is Multibody available for commercial launches, or are government contracts sucking up all their capacity? Any non-government US competitors? Was Pegasus developed? Or anything to replace the commercial EELVs IOTL? Was an Arianespace equivalent successfully set up? How are China's and the ex-USSR's commercial launch efforts going?

(Sorry, it just sort of kept growing!)

Lastly, I hope you don't mind, but I've been inspired by your timeline to try to re-create some of the spacecraft in Blender (I've been meaning to learn to use it for ages, and lots of cylindrical ships seemed like a good starting point). I've attached a sample of the initial efforts from the Spacelab era. I hope you enjoy them!

Spacelab-9.jpg
 
Another picture, the completed Spacelab receiving supplies. I noted you seemed to have included the Skylab sunshade on your Spacelab models. I had a tough time finding reference pictures for the Orbital Workshop that showed its intended design appearance with the meteor shield intact, but from what I could tell it should be black-and-white. Please feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong, I'd be happy to update my models accordingly!

cargo run-sm.jpg
 

  • Will we see the same LEO Commsat constellation scenario as in OTL, where industry bet on hundreds of LEO sats for mobile telephony, only to find terrestrial cellular networks developed faster and took the market?


  • Related to the above and SDI (w.r.t. large launch rates), will we see agitation for RLV/SSTO, similar to OTL National Space Plane, Hotol, Saenger, X-33, DC-X, Roton, etc? Without the Shuttle as a counter-example (and therefore with even less of an idea of the reality of RLV), I would expect there to be even more advocates for cheap, frequent RLV launches than was the case in OTL. Will this impact NASA’s Advanced Crew Vehicle development?


  • With NASA running Freedom at the same time as developing a Moon program, will the pressures that led to OTL COTS for private taxi service to the Station occur a decade earlier ITTL?

All of these will be covered in some detail in the future. I must note, however, that one factor in COTS (the retirement of the Shuttle) is obviously not going to play a significant role in Eyes, and that even though we’ve pushed the civilian space industry ahead of where it was OTL, it probably isn’t mature enough in the 1990s to realistically allow a COTS program.


  • ALH-84001 :)

Now, this is one of the few questions that I can flat-out answer, since it’s not going to (directly) come up in a future post. The short answer is: No. The long answer is, the massive butterflies that have cropped up since 1969 in directly related areas mean that the chance discovery of ALH84001 OTL is butterflied ITTL.


  • TV Sci-fi. No TNG and cancelled TNV means virtually no sci-fi on TV in the US – maybe Alien Nation still makes it, though hopefully TTL will be spared the War of the Worlds TV show. Will JMS still be shopping around Babylon 5 in the late ‘80s? Will he get more of a hearing for arc-based stories after this was pioneered for a season on TNV (and perhaps some more general interest in shows set on space stations)? similarly, will we see any more Trek spin-offs or movies? Stargate, S:AAB, Earth: Final Conflict? Will seaQuest still exist, and without TNG around will it be more original and not just keep trying to look like TNG underwater?

Well, suffice it to say that Brainbin is already working on the two cultural interludes for the 1990s, and I for one am greatly looking forward to seeing the full realization of what’s been described to me ;)


  • Faster, Better, Cheaper. Presumably there’ll still be budget pressures in the ‘90s (Moon missions sucking NASA funds instead of ISS), but will FBC come about without a high-profile Mars Observer failure (or will there be a TTL equivalent)?

There will be other pressures pushing for a lower-cost space program, but Faster, Better, Cheaper as such is not likely to happen. Stay tuned...


  • ITAR. If China start moving further faster in space, will there be a corresponding earlier fear of Chinese espionage and a related ITAR measure?


  • What’s the state of commercial launch in general in the ‘90s? Is Multibody available for commercial launches, or are government contracts sucking up all their capacity? Any non-government US competitors? Was Pegasus developed? Or anything to replace the commercial EELVs IOTL? Was an Arianespace equivalent successfully set up? How are China's and the ex-USSR's commercial launch efforts going?

Multibody is like Titan IV OTL: Government only. Pegasus was essentially butterflied by Caravel, which has a similar payload profile but was introduced earlier. As for China and ITAR...we shall see. One reason for that OTL, after all, was that a lot of corporations were purchasing low-cost Chinese launch services something which, shall we say, is less likely with healthy American and European launch companies and active commercial development.

Aside from that, well, wait and see is all I can say ;)

Lastly, I hope you don't mind, but I've been inspired by your timeline to try to re-create some of the spacecraft in Blender (I've been meaning to learn to use it for ages, and lots of cylindrical ships seemed like a good starting point). I've attached a sample of the initial efforts from the Spacelab era. I hope you enjoy them!

Mind!? I love them! :D Never ask whether I mind fanart, the answer is absolutely not!
 
Just wanted to quickly respond and say you've managed to induce a three-way nerdout on the ETS backchannels--I've got truth is life and the Brainbin nerding out in parallel IM windows. I'll be putting together a more coherent response once I staple my jaw closed, but are you by any chance the Nixon's Head I used to know back on the Subspace Comms Networks? Anyway, welcome aboard and thanks for the art!

EDIT: Ninja's by truth-is-life! Er...what he said. :)
 
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