Eyes Turned Skywards

It's basically convergent with OTL through the mid '80s: Thanks to converted ballistic missiles, they've got the capability to launch their own (small) satellites and recover film and stuff from orbit, which is certainly "space-faring." However, they're not really in any position to send anything to Halley (or really anywhere other than LEO), and they're stalled on HSF and heavy lift (even on the 70s-era scale of "more than a few tons). We'll come back to them later in a whole post devoted to their program, and they'll become a bigger player as we move into Part III.

IOTL, it wasn't until 2003 that China became the third nation to send a man into Space aboard Shenzhou 7. Monetary reasons being a prime factor - it wasn't until a further 2-3 years after that that they overtook the UK and became the World's No.4 Economy.

With a more advanced Space Programme from the US and ESA - depending on your point of view - they may try to go a little faster, though I still don't see it happening any time before 2000.

The real question is, would they be Number Three, or Four?

Guess we'll all have to wait until Part III to get the answer.
 
It's basically convergent with OTL through the mid '80s: Thanks to converted ballistic missiles, they've got the capability to launch their own (small) satellites and recover film and stuff from orbit, which is certainly "space-faring." However, they're not really in any position to send anything to Halley (or really anywhere other than LEO), and they're stalled on HSF and heavy lift (even on the 70s-era scale of "more than a few tons). We'll come back to them later in a whole post devoted to their program, and they'll become a bigger player as we move into Part III.

By this point, OTL or TTL they had a program about on the level of the '60s US and Soviet programs, but developing rapidly. It probably would have been technically possible for them to at least attempt to send a probe to Halley, but they didn't, in either timeline (it would have been pointless--too expensive, no real gain). This is why I mentioned them as a "major spacefaring nation".

India, the other major possibility, didn't (and still doesn't) have quite so developed a program, so they didn't quite make the cut.
 
using ICBM to launch satellite in low earth orbit is one thing, sending a deep space probe a another.

the Soviet Mars probe program is best example.
the first nine mission were total failures, the rest who arrived at Mars had allot of problems...
 
using ICBM to launch satellite in low earth orbit is one thing, sending a deep space probe a another.

the Soviet Mars probe program is best example.
the first nine mission were total failures, the rest who arrived at Mars had allot of problems...

I didn't say that a hypothetical Chinese Halley probe would work
 
Part II: Post 13: The Strategic Defense Initiative
Well, it's that time once again. Last week, we dealt with the various international flotilla of probes head to Halley's Comet. This year, we're turning to something equal international, but perhaps less desirable: global thermonuclear war, or perhaps more specifically the question of defending against it. That's right, this week we're talking about Star Wars. Hang on, I'm being informed by our culture desk that...oh, I see, different Star Wars? Ah. Well then. On with the show anyway!

P.S. Production update: buffer is now complete through the end of the year, with 57,000 words currently written in total for Part II. 5 posts remain to be completed, and we are now beginning to simultaneously work on elements to complete Part II and start Part III. In fact, my reward to myself for finishing the post that's queued up for next week was getting to write a post for Part III following up on something revealed in this post. 947 replies, 117616 views

Eyes Turned Skyward, Part II: Post 13

Since the Soviets had developed their own nuclear capability and ICBMs in the 1960s, the dominating doctrine in the field of nuclear weapons deployment had been one of Mutually Assured Destruction, or MAD. Under the tenants of MAD, while it was possible to launch a strike sufficient to destroy an enemy, the Soviet and American’s respective bombers, missile silos, and missile submarines created a nuclear trident, which would be able to react to an attack if one were started and respond in-kind before the attack struck home, meaning that any attempt to destroy the enemy would lead to one’s own destruction. Therefore, the most important role for nuclear forces was to maintain that “second-strike” capability, while at the same time preventing accidental use of nuclear weapons, ensuring that any attempt on the part of the enemy to attack would be suicidal. However, many in the military viewed this doctrine negatively, as it was based on the assumption that nuclear weapons were impossible to intercept and their damage had to be accepted as part of a stalemate, both assumptions that chafed for minds more used to an interplay of offense and defense, in which neither had an absolute upper hand. Thus, studies aimed at methods for intercepting ICBMs--the most intractable, so far as defense was concerned, of the trident--in-flight had been under study since the late 50s, mostly focusing on anti-ballistic missiles to intercept during descent. However, new technical developments in the late 70s--mainly new variants of the laser--had created a new possibility that suggested a new doctrine, this time one of strategic defense.

The new weapon, the X-ray laser, was a pet project of Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, though it was actually developed at Livermore National Labs in 1977 through 1980. The lab’s O-group had, through several revisions, demonstrated that a proper focusing crystal (actually a metal rod) could be “pumped” with the X-rays created by the energy release of a nuclear detonation to create a high-power laser. The “Dauphin” test in November 1980 had proved that the concept was potentially viable, and a further series of tests was planned under the name “Excalibur” to refine the concept. Compared to more conventional directed energy weapons, like chemical lasers, bomb-pumped lasers had two benefits stemming from their extremely high power density. First, they packed enough energy that the dwell time required to destroy a target such as a launching ICBM would be very short--perhaps as small as ten seconds. Second, their light weight made them potentially ideally suited to mounting on space-borne platforms, which could provide constant coverage over Soviet launch sites. By intercepting the missiles during launch, the benefits of multiple independent re-entry vehicles could be neutralized, and thus it was potentially possible for a constellation of laser satellites to be built which could intercept any Soviet nuclear strike. The idea had tremendous appeal for Teller, who had long promoted alternative uses of nuclear technologies, such as for excavation of entire harbors or canals, and he became a strong advocate of the project.

President Ronald Reagan had also been dissatisfied by the doctrine of MAD, and found the notion that, while individual missiles and re-entry vehicles could be tracked all the way to their targets, they were unstoppable in-flight to be unbelievable. Besides that, he had a strong personal antipathy to the notion of nuclear war and its apocalyptic consequences. Thus, he directed his advisors to investigate options for a new doctrine, using technologies like the X-ray laser, as well as a variety of more conventional weapons, to render ICBMs and their warheads vulnerable in-flight. For the first year of his Presidency, this activity largely confined itself to studying the range of ABM weapons that had been researched or developed since the development of the ballistic missile itself, searching for a system or systems that could actually protect the US against nuclear attack, and perhaps it would have remained there had it not been for the development of Vulkan and the consequent light it shone on all types of space activity.

Vulkan’s appearance led to a wholesale reevaluation of not only civilian but also military space programs and priorities. Although the development of a rocket with similar capabilities had been suspected through the NRO’s observations of Baikonur Cosmodrome, observations which played a significant role in the decision to adopt the Saturn Multibody for ELVRP II, satellites could only provide generalities, not the detailed technical information available from watching launches. And what those launches revealed was a set of vehicles that in many ways seemed to exceed present Soviet needs, indeed to go far beyond them. What could, intelligence analysts wondered, induce the Soviets to spend so much treasure and effort on building such a capable system?

The obvious answer would be expanding Soviet military capabilities in orbit, and as a result of research undertaken since the middle of Carter’s term, nuclear war experts in the government thought that they had a good idea of what, exactly, those military capabilities would be: anti-ballistic missile weapons. In particular, Vulkan would be ideal for launching “Excalibur”-type platforms into orbits covering US ICBM fields, and its larger variants could lift some of the heavier, more conventional weapons to provide further defense capabilities. Vulkan could also theoretically be used to launch “hardened” satellite platforms to fulfill existing Soviet missions through a combination of improving Soviet technology (reducing the weight of payloads) and increased lift weight, together compensating for additional protection against American anti-satellite attacks. Although emplacing nuclear weapons in orbit was and remains illegal under the Outer Space Treaty, and any ABM system capable of protecting an entire nation ipso facto violates the ABM Treaty, both sides had routinely violated solemn international agreements during the Cold War, and for objects much less impressive and potentially valuable than a functional missile shield. The only possible US counter, according to this line of analysis, would be its own missile defense program—a vastly expanded form of the lackadaisical efforts up to that point, with a clear mission: protecting the US against Soviet attack. The fact that most of the systems that had been proposed for missile defense also offered opportunities for attacking enemy satellites, often with far more efficacy than in the defense role, surely played a further factor in this particular reasoning, which quickly became received wisdom within the US intelligence and defense establishments.

In May 1982, just three months after the first Vulkan launch and well within the Vulkan Panic, President Reagan chose to address a speech to the nation “on the national defense”. In the course of this speech, he outlined the two policies which, so far as space was concerned, would define his Presidency. First, he sought to allay concerns that the Soviet Union was overtaking the United States in space technology, both by pointing towards ongoing and significant American achievements in space, and by announcing the development of Space Station Freedom, a much larger and more capable space station than either Spacelab or Salyut 7 (or, as matters would unfold, the MOK that was then being developed behind the Iron Curtain). Second, he pointed towards the fact that space could not only threaten but shield the United States; far from being a Communist menace, it could be made the protector of liberty. As such, he announced that he would start a program to permanently end the menace of nuclear weapons and the ballistic missiles used to carry them, the Strategic Defense Initiative. Although he spoke only in generalities, he made clear the potential of advanced technology and spaceflight to render the nation completely safe against nuclear weapons, a cause the President passionately believed in.

While responses to the speech were mixed—by the November midterm elections, the Vulkan Panic had ebbed somewhat, and Republicans took a drubbing based on their handling of the economy—this nevertheless marked the beginning of an enormous R&D program which, in essence, had two parts, at least so far as the space-based components were concerned. First were the actual weapons platforms and their supporting infrastructure in space. Besides the weapons themselves, observation satellites, communications platforms, and command-and-control posts would need to be developed and built, all capable of working together largely autonomously to defeat what, in a full-scale nuclear war, could be thousands or tens of thousands of Soviet missiles and warheads, a formidable task even without the additional complications of having to develop the weapons from scratch. These systems would also all need to be maintained in space, a further item of significant difficulty (and a secret motivation behind Freedom). Second were the methods of launching these platforms and satellites into space. Although ELVRP had developed a pair of vehicles in many ways much advanced over their predecessors, it had neither been intended nor capable of developing vehicles with the kind of capabilities that early analyses indicated were necessary for SDI. To avoid incurring massive expenditures merely on launches, costs would need to be brought down significantly, ten-fold or more, while capacities would need to remain similar, since the larger chemical laser satellites and possibly the Excalibur platforms would need large vehicles, similar to the solid boosted Saturns or even the Saturn Heavy for launch.

Four approaches for space-based ABM weapons were identified in the full-scale review of the “defense problem,” intended to synthesize all existing information about ballistic missile defense into a single strategic outline of what, exactly, SDI would need to do to achieve its mission as being probably the most worthy of significant attention. The first was Excalibur’s bomb-pumped lasers, which despite some disappointing test results still seemed to offer the most overall promise. Although vulnerable, like all space-based weapons, to ground attack, and blocked by the atmosphere (a problem if the Soviets developed rapidly burning ICBMs that could complete their rocket boost without entering space), the Excalibur concept still offered the most overall capability of any of the space-based weapons studied, and the possibility of use as a ground-based intercept weapon, perhaps based on modified SLBMs. The second were lasers, possibly the most conventional of the directed energy weapons discussed. Whether based in space or using mirrors in space to redirect US-based beams towards Soviet missiles, these shared the problems of vulnerability to anti-satellite attack and targeting common to most space-based weapons, while adding the issues of heat and power output for the space-based version and atmospheric interference for the ground-based variant. The third type of weapon, the particle beam, envisioned basing large particle accelerators in space, firing hydrogen atoms at very high speed at enemy ICBMs. Although probably not capable of physically destroying ICBMs like Excalibur or the conventional lasers, the radiation produced by energetic protons impacting ballistic missiles could damage or destroy the sensitive electronic components needed for the missile and its weapons to properly function. However, like Excalibur’s x-ray lasers, particle beams could easily be blocked by the atmosphere, and it would be difficult to confirm that target missiles were actually destroyed or disabled. Finally, there were kinetic energy weapons, essentially masses strapped onto rockets and fired at enemy missiles. The oldest and best developed approach, these suffered from limited velocities, and consequently limited range. Although methods could be developed of partially overcoming this limitation, these would have their own drawbacks, mainly increasing the cost and complexity of the interceptor. Together with the necessary targeting, communications, and control satellites, these four weapon types absorbed the vast majority of SDI research funding, as without some functional method of missile intercept all the rest would be useless.

As for the launch cost problem, three possible approaches quickly became apparent. The first and conceptually the simplest would be to just improve existing launch vehicles—a sort of ELVUP, building on the success of ELVRP I and II. However, it seemed doubtful that merely modifying existing vehicles would lead to the sorts of large cost savings necessary, and this approach received relatively little attention from SDI. The second approach, which proposed the development of a highly reusable vehicle much like the Shuttle briefly mooted in the late 1960s before the direction of NASA efforts into space stations, was far more popular among members of the SDI team. While less simple, it was also a conceptually obvious approach for improving launches. Intuitively, the launcher is a complex, expensive vehicle, and launcher manufacture absorbs most of the cost of a space launch. By not expending the launchers as if they were artillery shells, but reusing them as if they were airplanes, great cost savings could theoretically be had. Advocates liked to describe the disposable approach as similar to building a 747 (or other jetliner) at the airport for each flight, then scrapping it at the destination. The third and final approach was perhaps the most interesting, proposing instead the construction of extremely cheap disposable launch vehicles as the way to go. By using cheap, easy to store fuels, large thrust-to-weight ratios, and mass production or well-proven building techniques (depending on which advocate you talked to), this could achieve the same cost reductions as the second approach without requiring an extensive and expensive R&D program, or exotic and difficult engineering techniques.

As the most overall promising of the three from a theoretical standpoint, the second approach received the lion’s share of the funding allocated for SDI space launch research. This was further divided into two programs, the X-30, which (based on a flawed calculation) envisioned the development of a scramjet-rocket hybrid aircraft that could takeoff from a normal runway and fly into space with an acceptable cargo, and the X-40, based on Phil Bono and Gary Hudson’s work over the previous two decades, which instead envisioned a purely rocket-powered vehicle that would take off and land vertically. While X-30 work focused on materials science, to produce the light and strong materials needed to make the approach work, the X-40 focused mostly on showing that a pure rocket vehicle could actually fly, maneuver, and land. To this end, proposals were solicited for a test program consisting of two subscale prototype vehicles, able to be flown regularly to test control and operational procedures for a vertical takeoff, vertical landing (VTVL) reusable launch vehicle. Grumman, which had been slowly recovering from its financial near-disasters of the 1970s, managed to leverage its heritage as a DoD contractor and the developer of the Lunar Module during Apollo into a winning proposal.

The X-40 was designed around four RL-10 hydrogen/oxygen engines, with control to be provided through a combination of engine gimbal, gasous oxygen/gaseous hydrogen thrusters, and aerodynamic control surfaces. To ensure the rugged qualities the program called for and mitigate the amount of technical development required, the Grumman engineering team selected conventional aluminum structures, instead of the advanced composites being researched for the X-30. Additionally, in the same tradition which had lead to Grumman being dubbed the “Ironworks” during WWII, the X-40 (internally nicknamed the “Starcat” by Grumman engineers) was also designed with robust margins and an eye towards ease of ground handling, even at the expense of additional weight--many senior Grumman engineers recalled the operational headaches of leaks and welding created by the need to trim weight from the fuel systems on the lunar module, and (given the relatively low delta-v required of the X-40 vehicles) sought to avoid such headaches on the X-40. Thus, after two years years of design and development, construction of the first spaceframe began at their Bethpage, Long Island facility in 1987. By 1990, while the X-30 program (which many had regarded as more promising in 1984) continued to encounter setbacks with the proposed scramjet engines and advanced materials, leaving it stalled at basic design, the first Grumman X-40 was being prepared for transport from Bethpage to White Sands to begin flight testing.
 
SDI, MAD, and Star Wars - the Military Programme, not the Trilogy :p - which did have an effect on NASA IOTL. Though it seems here, it the effect has been magnified, no doubt by the Freshness of the Vulkan-Panic just as Space was heading up Reagan's Agenda.

So the key points of new LVs for the US - Military - have come in the form of Reusable SSTO LVs? Tricky, at best.

IOTL, the X-33 which was once meant to to serve as the replacement for STS, failed on account that the advanced materials couldn't be developed to the required standard in time. Here, with the X-30, the problem lies with the ScramJet engine as well as the need for advanced materials construction. The very-low density LH2 doesn't help much either.

Which must explain why the X-40 is having better luck. Though by 1990, it'll be reaching the end of its purpose. The whole of SDI too.
 
So the x40 is essentially a dcx, and the x30 a more ambitious x33? Or more like hotol? (Ooo, given the location of much of the us aerospace industry, does this get called 'hotol california'?)

What is the comment that the x40 has low deltav? Is that just because its a suborbital demonstrator?

Will we see it fail as an ssto, and succeed as a reusable first stage?
 
What is the comment that the x40 has low deltav? Is that just because its a suborbital demonstrator?

Most likely that this is the case. Only there to demonstrate/prove the concept, and if successful, pave the way to the main design.


Will we see it fail as an ssto, and succeed as a reusable first stage?

Both are possible. By landing on land, they needn't risk losing engines that hit an ocean while still hot.
 
Nice post

in OTL the X-ray laser were abandon fast.
Because, so the story goes they had very extreme bad efficiency factor.
And violated allot Treatys, like ABM and Outer Space treaty, what forbid storage of Nuke in space.
also were concern about EMP blast by the use of X-ray laser in space.

Phil Bono and Gary Hudson’s work means: SASSTO. :cool:
sadly the X-40 has no the aerospike engine of the concept.

what will be the final version for USAF: SASSTO type or bigger Pegasus like booster ?
 
Nice post

in OTL the X-ray laser were abandon fast.
Because, so the story goes they had very extreme bad efficiency factor.
And violated allot Treatys, like ABM and Outer Space treaty, what forbid storage of Nuke in space.
also were concern about EMP blast by the use of X-ray laser in space.

Phil Bono and Gary Hudson’s work means: SASSTO. :cool:
sadly the X-40 has no the aerospike engine of the concept.

what will be the final version for USAF: SASSTO type or bigger Pegasus like booster ?
The dcx also used rl10s, iirc. It was the next version, iirc, that would have used the aerospike.
 
Nice post

in OTL the X-ray laser were abandon fast.
Because, so the story goes they had very extreme bad efficiency factor.
And violated allot Treatys, like ABM and Outer Space treaty, what forbid storage of Nuke in space.
also were concern about EMP blast by the use of X-ray laser in space.

Phil Bono and Gary Hudson’s work means: SASSTO. :cool:
sadly the X-40 has no the aerospike engine of the concept.

what will be the final version for USAF: SASSTO type or bigger Pegasus like booster ?

Bono always means rombus to me...
 
Bono always means rombus to me...

Which is also closer to what we were thinking. Think more DC-X than either, though. Not quite the same thing, different heritage, but...

A good way to conceptualize the X-40 (and X-30, including IOTL) is as, well, the X-40. The OTL one, that is, which was a subscale aerodynamics demonstrator for the X-37. Although obviously more complicated, the essential idea is that the X-40 will demonstrate the necessary concepts for a follow-on development project in VTVL SSTO.

X-30 is more or less the same thing as OTL, air-breathing-to-orbit. I thought the flawed calculation bit was pretty good when I read about it in the Heppenheimer book on hypersonics, so it got thrown in despite the butterflies. You may take it as a generalized program into airbreathing/HTHL concepts, however, similar to how the X-40 is a general program into rocketbased/VTVL concepts. Not having the Shuttle around means that VTHL is more marginal here, and it was decided that in any event concepts from both the X-30 and X-40 could be hybridized to develop one, if that seemed like the most economical path forwards.
 
So the x40 is essentially a dcx, and the x30 a more ambitious x33? Or more like hotol? (Ooo, given the location of much of the us aerospace industry, does this get called 'hotol california'?)...
:D
Given the timeframe (early 1980s) I wondered how HOTOL might get drawn into it too.

I used to think of LACE as completely daft, and I suspect that if one goes all the way to cooling hypersonic intake air into an actual liquid, it is indeed daft! Part of my problem was, it didn't occur to me the method of chilling the plasma-hot air would be to simply use liquid hydrogen fuel as a heat sink; I was thinking in terms of active heat pumps that could somehow recycle a coolant from liquid-air temperatures to white-hot, and pump out all that heat and then enough more to chill the stuff back to liquid-hydrogen type temperatures, using engine power to drive the pumping--and God knows what to radiate the heat away!:eek: I might, if suitably paid or otherwise motivated, relearn enough thermodynamics to estimate the minimum powers involved but I suspect it would dwarf the power output of a rocket engine.:(

But the SABRE idea, which was already at the core of HOTOL by 1982 I believe, is first of all not to actually liquefy the air but merely to chill it down to near those temperatures; as a cold gas it is quite dense enough, and second to use the heat capacity of liquid hydrogen as the heat sink--some of the hydrogen is then burnt as fuel--actually less than half of it by current SABRE designs I believe, something like 40 percent.

And the other key to why I don't relegate Skylon and SABRE to looneyland along with dreams of scramjets to orbit is, they only attempt to use the airbreathing mode up to about Mach 5, 1600 meters/sec. This is only about 1/5 the speed needed to achieve orbit but it can save a whole lot of propellant in pure rocket mode. Another key to Skylon's current plan in OTL is, I think, that in the early phases of pure rocket boost, the aerodynamic forces are quite considerable whereas the mass of the rocket is high, hence thrust/weight ratios are low--so the fact that the spacecraft is designed to have efficient supersonic aerodynamic lift means the thrusts needed to counter gravity losses are low, by the lift/drag factors achievable at the high supersonic/low hypersonic speeds the craft is moving at before its climb takes it into really thin air. By then, it will have achieved a fair amount of upward momentum while the mass is reduced and so the engine thrust can handle offsetting gravity losses without much reduction in forward thrust.

The latter would be even more the case in a successful scramjet-to-orbit scheme, but I have been badly disillusioned about the prospects of an engine system that can achieve useful thrust all through the low-to-high hypersonic regime. And going airbreathing for all or even most of the thrust to orbital speeds means lingering in relatively dense air, paying large penalties in aerodynamic drag and severe heating. It's a hell of a challenge.

This is why I'd be excited if the OTL people involved in HOTOL and later Skylon could be hooked into a Pentagon-funded and serious program with serious bucks.

I'd have thought that Prime Minister Thatcher would be utterly wowed by Reagan's SDI, and keen to offer a British contribution toward a transAtlantic program.

OTOH, I gather that the people involved were very much not keen at all on being swept up into Pentagon patronage, and of course a mostly-US funded program would tend to award the pork mainly to US firms, even if it was being seriously and consistently pursued as a joint Anglo-American project.

And finally, HOTOL as originally proposed was rather flawed; hopefully the evolution toward Skylon concepts would happen rather rapidly.
Will we see it fail as an ssto, and succeed as a reusable first stage?
After all my dreams of "Hotol California" though, I rather think by now I can guess the way the timeline authors would tend to veer.

I can recall something that seems relevant to this discussion of the VTOL version in another timeline; I daresay most of us have glanced at that but I will remain coy about it unless and until the authors indicate this reference is not unwelcome here!

It has to do with vertical landing a Saturn-type first stage, that's all I'm saying now.
 
I can recall something that seems relevant to this discussion of the VTOL version in another timeline; I daresay most of us have glanced at that but I will remain coy about it unless and until the authors indicate this reference is not unwelcome here!

It has to do with vertical landing a Saturn-type first stage, that's all I'm saying now.

Er, what now?

I think I can say that while various European countries study fully-reusable rockets sort of like IOTL (Saenger II, Oriflamme, HOTOL...), these probably aren't as developed and certainly not as...hm, interesting without Shuttle around. Remember, it wasn't really until 51-L that Shuttle stopped looking halfway decent as a satellite launch vehicle. While Shuttle was used as a commercial vehicle, it launched 20 commercial satellites versus 13 for Ariane (and 6 for Delta and 5 for Atlas; so 20 versus 24 for all competitors combined), so it would have looked reasonable to consider an even more reusable vehicle for a competitor to Shuttle. Of course, the accident ended that, and of course a lot of the business was based on unreasonably low introductory prices that would have driven business to Ariane regardless. But to the French, at least, who were behind the whole Ariane project in the first place and have (perhaps oddly, given sterotypes) been the biggest proponents of a significant European commercial launch business, it must have looked like a serious threat.
 
Oh, and another thing:

Excalibur lasers were expected to lase for 10s of seconds?:confused:

I thought the idea was, the bomb goes off, and during the really tiny amount of time it takes to vaporize the metal crystal, it lases in X-ray--channeling some significant fraction of the bomb's energy into a pre-aimed beam that only lasts about as long as the time it takes to vaporize the structure--some tiny fraction of a second I'd think would be measured in microseconds. Then the laser, along with everything else, is part of an expanding cloud of plasma and nuclear particles. But the damage to the target is done in that same small fraction of a millisecond (offset by speed of light delay for the X-rays to reach the target of course)--all the energy the laser absorbed and converted to coherent X-rays arrives at the target over a period comparable to the initial burst. Either it misses, or it hits, and if it hits some significant fraction of the bomb's energy penetrates it and degenerates to heat, and bang. If the target warhead or boost vehicle (the idea was to kill the launch rocket while still boosting, right, not to incinerate a warhead in ballistic flight?) doesn't actually flash into vapor, it does have a great big hole blown in it and any mechanisms (such as the basic structure of the H-bombs aboard) are trashed by the thermal shock wave. Missile is killed, assuming the aim was good enough.

How in the name of Ned can a nuclear-explosion excited X-ray laser go on lasing for as much as 10 seconds, and how can a crystal, presumably still solid somehow but surely at least white-hot, be tracked to keep the beam on a target that moves an appreciable distance during those seconds--especially a target that might jink around a bit once it observes it's being lased with X-rays that can't kill it in a fraction of a second but will over 10? What sort of onboard aiming mechanism can survive the initial blast along with the lasing crystal?

I never got into the details of how an Excalibur would work, obviously,:eek: the few things I did pick up suggested the instant-flash concept, which neatly solves the aiming problem--you track the target before firing and the laser is pointed the right way for the very brief time it needs to be, then it's gone, of course.

The only way I can imagine "10 seconds" is if there are tens of thousands of the things all going off in succession like a string of firecrackers, just to kill one missile.

I suppose this might be coming out of stuff that got declassified in the decades since I was living (at some remove, but not as much as most people) from the heart of the argument, in the mid-80s.

Excalibur seemed wacky (if admittedly, awesome in a war-nerd sort of way) enough the way I thought of it.

Everything I read here on the Wikipedia page for Project Excalibur backs up my earlier impressions; 10 seconds dwell time might be reasonable for other sorts of laser-based (chemical pumped) or particle accelerator systems, but if you're using an H-bomb as the pump you'd better be delivering a killing burst in an instant; it's all the time you've got!

Since you guys are generally on top of your research I suppose you're aware of something I'm not, but I did reread the relevant passage and you are talking about the X-ray, bomb-pumped laser there, not some lower-power but more durable alternative system.

I just don't see that it could be possible, and if the lasing mechanism and initial absorption of blast power is efficient enough, it shouldn't be necessary, to lase for 10 seconds. A millisecond would get the job done, bing bang boom.

If that is the dang thing works at all, and can be aimed across orbital distances, and penetrate deep enough through atmosphere to kill a launching missile (or be powerful and well-aimed enough to zap a warhead in inertial flight).

Not to mention the political fallout; including the risk that if one side seriously believes the other is putting up an ABM system that will actually protect them significantly once completed, they may well contemplate preemptive war before it gets to be too late. Or go for expensive countermeasures--that would be vastly less expensive even so than beefing up the basic SDI system to deal with them.

I'm a big skeptic about SDI obviously.
 
Not to mention the political fallout; including the risk that if one side seriously believes the other is putting up an ABM system that will actually protect them significantly once completed, they may well contemplate preemptive war before it gets to be too late. Or go for expensive countermeasures--that would be vastly less expensive even so than beefing up the basic SDI system to deal with them.

Or put up ASAT weapons to shoot down the SDI weapons, and, hm...many SDI concepts make great ASAT weapons... ;) You may notice that ITTL SDI is started because people are afraid the Soviets are going to do it first. Quite the difference from ours, I should say.
 
Er, what now?
The vertical landing thing on another thread was a contribution either you or e of pi, I forget which, made to the preliminary discussion about maximum launch mass flows to orbit the USA and Soviets could manage in the 1970s if they were given a surprise, ASB motivation to escalate the space race--as a race toward other goals not known to exist OTL in the Solar System. There was a lot of discussion on that thread about the best ways and means, balancing wanting to get a lot of stuff up quickly versus finding ways to sustain a higher rate in the long run--in other words, pretty much the options the Vulkan-panicked Americans are considering here--incremental evolution of existing systems, some sort of reusable orbital shuttle (be it VTVL, VTHL, HTHL, whatever) or lots of cheap big dumb boosters. In the course of it there was a suggestion for modifying, not a Multibody/Saturn 1C type booster stage but a Saturn V type first stage for vertical descent and soft landing on land under rocket thrust. That would be for the kind of thing Dathi was getting at--not a fully reusable single-stage system like ROMBUS or the like, but at any rate a reusable first stage. (It is after all the biggest stage, with the most and biggest engines, best worth the investment of making them reusable, and reenters at a much lower velocity than a spent upper stage, so making it survive aerobraking is much more reasonable).

You might recall my own suggestion along those lines was to attach helicopter type blades to the upper part of the booster stage (but no hub; the whole stage would spin as the craft autogyroed toward its landing). I have to say the more I think about it the better your suggestion looked compared to mine!:eek:

As it happened the author of that thread went on to start a quite amusing but not very realistic spacefaring thread involving all manner of ASB stuff--the kind that's plausible in the sense that say Star Trek is--no more, no less. And the orbital options very quickly got past the realistic stuff you guys are good at into all kinds of wacky options that raised my eyebrows. Again not bad stuff in the sense that Heinlein stories from the 30s to 50s were vaguely realistic, but not grounded in anything we were talking about. Nuclear Skylons and the like and before you knew it, Newtonian inertia and speed of light limits didn't apply any more.

Lots of cool aliens and Golden Age sci-fi type stuff--it moved past the 1970s fast, so not so much of what we were all discussing in the planning thread got more than cameos if that. No spinning autogyroing Saturn stages, thank God I guess. But not the rocket landing types either, the author IIRC went with the winged Saturn concept eventually before moving on to, um, "greener" pastures like nuclear SSTO.:p

I just didn't want to derail what's happening here too much with specifics from there, because no one is re-inventing the Saturn V here.

I think I can say that while various European countries study fully-reusable rockets sort of like IOTL (Saenger II, Oriflamme, HOTOL...), these probably aren't as developed and certainly not as...hm, interesting without Shuttle around. Remember, it wasn't really until 51-L that Shuttle stopped looking halfway decent as a satellite launch vehicle. ...

But now you're saying in the post, all of a sudden the committee studying DoD's options is all gaga for something more or less Shuttle/DC-X type, something on that spectrum, so at this point the Europeans should be dusting off their long-shelved proposals too. I guess the point is, none of them have the man-years of work in them to polish them up to the OTL shine they had by this date, so they are just crude sketches no better than what these American brainstormers can up with sketching on their own napkins; in particular Bond (or whoever the main mover and shaker behind HOTOL was at this point OTL) doesn't have things worked out even as well as OTL; if Americans go for something in an airbreathing, cryogenically cooled condensed air jet type first stage in this process it would be extrapolated from homegrown American stuff done by Marquart or their ilk, no Brits need apply.;)

I dunno, I just hope someone puts as much money behind something like Skylon as they would actually pony up for the scramjet thing, that someone has at least considered that option by the time they are prepared to put real cash down on the hypersonic airbreathers.

And no, the way this timeline goes I fully expect the actual winner of the competition to be mainly from the underfunded Ugly Duckling options, evolved rockets--evolved to be cheaper even if a certain "dumbness" is involved, but perhaps with nifty options salvaged from the ambitious reusable projects, such as say a vertical landing booster stage, for instance.:p

A Lofstrom Loop is clean out I guess.:(

Or put up ASAT weapons to shoot down the SDI weapons, and, hm...many SDI concepts make great ASAT weapons... ;) You may notice that ITTL SDI is started because people are afraid the Soviets are going to do it first. Quite the difference from ours, I should say.

I want to be clear, the question of whether SDI is a brilliant or stupid idea is separate from whether you'd realistically include it in the timeline! Even without fear of a plausible Soviet capability God knows we talked about it, and associated aggressive moves into space on massive new infrastructure, quite a lot in the OTL '80s.

I'm just cowering in fear of the post where Timberwind might get in.:eek:

Dr. J. Frank Parnell said:
Ra-di-a-tion. Yes, indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad for you. Pernicious nonsense! Everybody could stand a hundred chest X-rays a year! They oughta have 'em, too.
 
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On Europe SSTO and TSTO program of 1960s to 1980s

Sänger JuRT-8-01, Oriflamme, "MISTRAL", Dassault "Le transporteur aerospatial" and "MUSTARD"
were series of proposal by the European Aerospace industry 1960 to 1964 for Europe states and ELDO.
and were ignored by them...

MBB (who had fusion with junkers in 1969) used Sänger JuRT-8-01 more as a technological study over next 20 years.
next to JuRT-8-01 MBB work on study called BETA a SSTO by Dietrich Koelle

in 1980s was Sänger II a technology study and NOT a official program !
1989 MBB became part of DASA (today part of EADS)
but the Sänger II concept had unusual success in Aerospace industry, media and german politic scene.
Because the option: Manned, unmanned space flight and a Mach 7 airliner.
what let DASA to declare Sänger II to there "official" program, much to anger of France who work on Hermes space shuttle.
That let to a strange situation, that French also start study Sänger II like concept by CNES and Dassault!
but Sänger II needed technology, what was far far away from German level on hypersonic aerospace research, it's major problem was the Mach 7 engine on first stage.
In 1989 to 1991 Germany change completely, with collapse of East Germany and Unification of the two germanys.
Money was needed for Unification process, So Sänger II project came under the budget axe.
in 1995 Sänger II had not enough budget for Engine test or build a Mach 7 demonstrator aircraft.
also study from german Universities show that Sänger II is not cheaper as Ariane 5 launch vehicle, so the Project was terminated.

HOTOL had major design fault from the begin.
the heavy RB545 engine were in back end, while Lox/Lh2 tank makes it front part.
during launch and flight the tank drains, moving the Craft center of gratify more and more back.
making stable fly nearly impossible, they try to to compensate with elevator on huge hydraulic system.
in end HOTOL was terminate and begin of better design SKYLON began.
 
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The vertical landing thing on another thread was a contribution either you or e of pi, I forget which, made to the preliminary discussion about maximum launch mass flows to orbit the USA and Soviets could manage in the 1970s if they were given a surprise, ASB motivation to escalate the space race--as a race toward other goals not known to exist OTL in the Solar System. There was a lot of discussion on that thread about the best ways and means, balancing wanting to get a lot of stuff up quickly versus finding ways to sustain a higher rate in the long run--in other words, pretty much the options the Vulkan-panicked Americans are considering here--incremental evolution of existing systems, some sort of reusable orbital shuttle (be it VTVL, VTHL, HTHL, whatever) or lots of cheap big dumb boosters. In the course of it there was a suggestion for modifying, not a Multibody/Saturn 1C type booster stage but a Saturn V type first stage for vertical descent and soft landing on land under rocket thrust. That would be for the kind of thing Dathi was getting at--not a fully reusable single-stage system like ROMBUS or the like, but at any rate a reusable first stage. (It is after all the biggest stage, with the most and biggest engines, best worth the investment of making them reusable, and reenters at a much lower velocity than a spent upper stage, so making it survive aerobraking is much more reasonable).

You might recall my own suggestion along those lines was to attach helicopter type blades to the upper part of the booster stage (but no hub; the whole stage would spin as the craft autogyroed toward its landing). I have to say the more I think about it the better your suggestion looked compared to mine!:eek:

As it happened the author of that thread went on to start a quite amusing but not very realistic spacefaring thread involving all manner of ASB stuff--the kind that's plausible in the sense that say Star Trek is--no more, no less. And the orbital options very quickly got past the realistic stuff you guys are good at into all kinds of wacky options that raised my eyebrows. Again not bad stuff in the sense that Heinlein stories from the 30s to 50s were vaguely realistic, but not grounded in anything we were talking about. Nuclear Skylons and the like and before you knew it, Newtonian inertia and speed of light limits didn't apply any more.

Lots of cool aliens and Golden Age sci-fi type stuff--it moved past the 1970s fast, so not so much of what we were all discussing in the planning thread got more than cameos if that. No spinning autogyroing Saturn stages, thank God I guess. But not the rocket landing types either, the author IIRC went with the winged Saturn concept eventually before moving on to, um, "greener" pastures like nuclear SSTO.:p

I just didn't want to derail what's happening here too much with specifics from there, because no one is re-inventing the Saturn V here.

Oh right, the alien city on Mars thread. No, I had totally forgotten about it and had no clue why you might be unwilling to talk about (still don't...)

But now you're saying in the post, all of a sudden the committee studying DoD's options is all gaga for something more or less Shuttle/DC-X type, something on that spectrum, so at this point the Europeans should be dusting off their long-shelved proposals too. I guess the point is, none of them have the man-years of work in them to polish them up to the OTL shine they had by this date, so they are just crude sketches no better than what these American brainstormers can up with sketching on their own napkins; in particular Bond (or whoever the main mover and shaker behind HOTOL was at this point OTL) doesn't have things worked out even as well as OTL; if Americans go for something in an airbreathing, cryogenically cooled condensed air jet type first stage in this process it would be extrapolated from homegrown American stuff done by Marquart or their ilk, no Brits need apply.;)

Not precisely gaga, more..."recognizing that conventional boosters cannot reach the desired flight rates, payload performance, and cost targets simultaneously, the Department of Defense Strategic Defense Initiative Organization (DoD-SDIO) is undertaking a study into possible alternatives to conventional booster technologies, with a particular emphasis on reusable launch vehicles".

Think of it as the latter day version of the Aerospaceplane project from the early '60s (that one invented LACE, ACES, and all that fun stuff)

Oh, and I don't think it's spoiling...um, anything to say that the Lockheed entry was some version of Starclipper (of course). They've been flogging that for a reusable booster in some guise or another since the '60s, OTL, even before our PoD, so...

I dunno, I just hope someone puts as much money behind something like Skylon as they would actually pony up for the scramjet thing, that someone has at least considered that option by the time they are prepared to put real cash down on the hypersonic airbreathers.

My Magic 8 Ball says, "Not likely". I think Skylon's cool too, but...[redacted].

And no, the way this timeline goes I fully expect the actual winner of the competition to be mainly from the underfunded Ugly Duckling options, evolved rockets--evolved to be cheaper even if a certain "dumbness" is involved, but perhaps with nifty options salvaged from the ambitious reusable projects, such as say a vertical landing booster stage, for instance.:p

I think you've got our number, now, Shevek :p

A Lofstrom Loop is clean out I guess.:(

Infrastructural launch systems have all these annoying cost issues...and many of them have technical feasibility issues, too.

I want to be clear, the question of whether SDI is a brilliant or stupid idea is separate from whether you'd realistically include it in the timeline! Even without fear of a plausible Soviet capability God knows we talked about it, and associated aggressive moves into space on massive new infrastructure, quite a lot in the OTL '80s.

True enough, that. I'm just pointing out that the strategic landscape looks rather different; I doubt many people will be pointing to SDI as a brilliant move to bankrupt the Soviets as sometimes happens IOTL, for instance, since it was started as a reaction to Soviet activities. The fact that the Soviets were completely misread will come out after the Cold War, and it will probably look like a jolly great waste of money...more so that IOTL, anyways.

I'm just cowering in fear of the post where Timberwind might get in.:eek:

Then you'll love [redacted]. Oh, wait, that doesn't involve pebble-bed nuclear engines, just [redacted]. Hm, maybe [redacted] will be more to your liking?

And a big thanks to Michel for clearing that up. I see that I managed to move Oriflamme some twenty years out of position, silly me.
 
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