Eyes Turned Skywards

my hands hurt from clapping and my throat hurts from screaming: Go JPL, EDL, "Curiosity" and hell yeah :cool:
and now this news:

You bet you will. Truth is life has done some amazing work on the unmanned side, including two Mars updates spanning some 4300 words.
Eyes Turned Skyward will resume Tuesday, August 21st, 2012,

So that's what it take to get spoilers, Mars landings. :)

but i try to cheer, but it will more be a squawk :rolleyes:

by the way,
Mars landings like in MANNED MARS LANDINGS ?

I hope that my "Reagan Space Exploration Initiative" Tl gets to 25,000 words...
and more of 10% of 600 post of "Eyes turn Skywards"
 
I'm glad to hear this TL is coming back. Though a lot of technical stuff isn't really my area of expertise, it's still been a fun read so far…

15 days. I've waited this long already. I can wait a couple more days.

but i try to cheer, but it will more be a squawk :rolleyes:
Thank you all. I've been looking forward to being back for a while, and I think the same is true for truth is life. I hope you'll enjoy reading it as much as we've enjoyed writting it. I think you will. :)

by the way,
Mars landings like in MANNED MARS LANDINGS ?
Not in those two posts, no, they're just about unmanned exploration of the Red Planet. And since Part II will cover roughly 10 years (~1982-1992), there won't be any manned landings in Part II either. Now Part III or IV...that would be telling, wouldn't it? ;)
 
Last edited:
Not in those two posts, no, they're just about unmanned exploration of the Red Planet. And since Part II will cover roughly 10 years (~1982-1992), there won't be any manned landings in Part II either. Now Part III or IV...that would be telling, wouldn't it? ;)

So as I read it...

ETS Part I - 1968-1982

ETS Part II - 1982-1992

ETS Part III - 1992-2002

ETS Part IV - 2002-2012


So a Manned Mars Mission is both technically and financially possible in the Part IV arc. Politically, meh.

More likely is a Lunar Return Mission. You've already made clear that the Saturn Multibody H03 is capable of sending a Block II CSM straight to the Moon, to reach an already-launched and waiting lander. Plans could be drawn up towards the end of Part II, but I don't see it happening until after the TTL equivalent of the ISS is not only completed but has been in use for a while, say, the end of the Part III arc.

Clearly there's a lot to take in to get it all right.
 
Woohoo, I am caught up on this timeline, and just in time for it to return! Thanks for the great timeline e of pi and truth is life, and to everyone else for the great comments! I look forward to Part II.
 
Woohoo, I am caught up on this timeline, and just in time for it to return! Thanks for the great timeline e of pi and truth is life, and to everyone else for the great comments! I look forward to Part II.

You got some good timing then. Less than two weeks to the projected start of Part II. I'm more than certain it will be worth the wait.
 
So as I read it...

ETS Part I - 1968-1982

ETS Part II - 1982-1992

ETS Part III - 1992-2002

ETS Part IV - 2002-2012
We're planning the breaks much more topically than chronologically, hence why Part I ran 14 years(ish) and while Part II will cover only roughly 10. However, that's essentially the rough breakdown we're thinking of, though by the time we catch up to OTL it may be more like 2013 or 2014 at this rate. :)

So a Manned Mars Mission is both technically and financially possible in the Part IV arc. Politically, meh.

More likely is a Lunar Return Mission. You've already made clear that the Saturn Multibody H03 is capable of sending a Block II CSM straight to the Moon, to reach an already-launched and waiting lander. Plans could be drawn up towards the end of Part II, but I don't see it happening until after the TTL equivalent of the ISS is not only completed but has been in use for a while, say, the end of the Part III arc.
Could you stop with the scarily prescient guesses, or confine them maybe just to the scope of Part II, please? :) As much as I like independent confirmation that our timeline seems reasonable in the form of others guessing events long before they happen, it doesn't do much for any worries about predictability.
Woohoo, I am caught up on this timeline, and just in time for it to return! Thanks for the great timeline e of pi and truth is life, and to everyone else for the great comments! I look forward to Part II.
Thanks for your kind words, and I'm glad you're anticipating our return. In the meantime, any comments from having read Part I as a complete unit?
 
Last edited:
Could you stop with the scaily prescient guesses, or confine them maybe just to the scope of Part II, please? :) As much as I like independent confirmation that our timeline seems reasonable in the form of others guessing events long before they happen, it doesn't do much for any worries about predictability.

Well I did base them on what info is available here, with some educated guesswork. Part II predictions will have to wait until it's a few posts in, and I got a good idea of where it's heading.

One prediction I will make right now, however, is it's gonna be great! :D
 
Thanks for your kind words, and I'm glad you're anticipating our return. In the meantime, any comments from having read Part I as a complete unit?

Just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head, it's really nice to see the F-1 kept alive. How many proposals have we had over the course of the last 30 years involving them, but they never happen because it would take so much effort to develop a production capability again. Heck, we just had one from PWR for SLS, replacing the solid rocket boosters with liquid boosters that have F-1 derivatives. We'll see how far that gets. And you saved Europa, that is really interesting. I love the idea of the UK staying in the space launch game, though the level of hostility towards it, and especially the thought of manned space efforts IOTL, I wonder if Europa's success would have even been enough. I have seen many people comment on a potential for ESA and JAXA (Or its original component agencies, I suppose) teaming up, and while that is certainly possible, given the Japanese views of the time it is probably more likely that they would seek out and accept the role of a lesser partner with NASA over a more major partner with the ESA. On the NASDA side, at least. Indeed, when NASA has not wanted to play ball with them IOTL, they mostly have concentrated on their own efforts. Not saying it isn't possible or that it hasn't happened at times, but overall they have strongly favored NASA even with the problems that brings. I'd also hope NASA would still have its strong relationship with Canada, even at times when US national prestige was in the forefront Canada still managed to get involved in NASA programs. And, of course, they also have their special status with the ESA, so the best of both worlds for them! (And, actually, the USAF as well as part of NORAD.)

On the topic of air launch, the primary thoughts the military had and sometimes still has have never been that it is cheaper or superior in most ways to a conventional launch pad, no, it's more of an operationally responsive space concept. Space assets (and launchers, as a matter of fact) are so vulnerable it has been a USAF holy grail forever to have a means to replace them quickly without all the production that accompanies a typical launch that is well covered by observational assets. The whole netcentric concept of warfare is based on the idea that the USAF would be developing this capability sometime soon (by 1994 or so...) But then the Cold War ended and it just didn't seem worth the expense. And yet, that holy grail (operationally responsive space, not airlaunch specifically, they haven't bothered to deal with the launcher aspect of it at all, really) along with the USAF's other space holy grail, a totally blue spaceplane system, combine to give us the X-37B. For whatever it is worth and wherever it takes us. But IOTL the USAF to this day and in this budget environment still has not given up on putting wings on spacecraft, so I wouldn't doubt they would still be trying to figure out how to get that one past the politicians in ITTL as well. Why? You'd have to ask them, they won't tell me!

Anyway, I could probably say many more things but those were the most immediate ones bouncing around in my head. I, too, curse that we threw away all of the Apollo infrastructure, but then again I just don't know if it would have been that different overall the way most people seem to view space in the US. Indeed, "big science and technology" don't seem to have many fans anymore, I am pretty sure the Super Conducting Super Collider didn't have many allies either. Not that I am bitter over any of that, or that the last human walked on the moon years before I was alive and that there is a chance it will not happen again until I am long dead, or... Sorry, that's the pessimist in me, we do have iPhones so it all balances out I am sure. None the less, I am enjoying this timeline so keep up the good work!
 
Something I thought about while re-reading some of the Posts here. Valentin Petrovich Glushko. Both OTL and TTL he had a massive ego. So great, in fact, that its insane Gravitational Field sucked many other rival groups, such as OKB-1, into its sphere of influence. :p:p:p He only mellowed out a bit in the final few years of his life. So what I ask is this:

Given that his dreams are coming into fruition rather more here - in that he has Vulkan and the means, if not the money for sending Cosmonauts to the Moon - what would that do. On the one hand, seeing more of his dream come to life, while knowing that his time is running out might mellow him further than OTL. On the other, it might stoke is ego some more.

Not easy, though I would suspect the former, on account that he must know he's well and truly in the twilight of his life, and would want to leave a better impression of himself when he expires.
 
Just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head, it's really nice to see the F-1 kept alive. How many proposals have we had over the course of the last 30 years involving them, but they never happen because it would take so much effort to develop a production capability again. Heck, we just had one from PWR for SLS, replacing the solid rocket boosters with liquid boosters that have F-1 derivatives. We'll see how far that gets.
Well, SLS has to survive being cancelled for that, and for a white elephant that could be very tricky to pull off when Falcon Heavy comes online next year with 50-60% or so of the capability for about 10% the cost for. But that's not really here, nor there, is it? The point is that the F1 is a great engine, and it'd be darn handy if it hadn't die. It's actually a bit of a handwave here--it'd be arguably more sensible to just keep building Saturn 1Bs, or to switch to Titan IIIM or something instead of building a new Saturn 1C--but we wanted F1 for Multibody. So Saturn 1C it was--a proposal which really wasn't talked about OTL.
And you saved Europa, that is really interesting. I love the idea of the UK staying in the space launch game, though the level of hostility towards it, and especially the thought of manned space efforts IOTL, I wonder if Europa's success would have even been enough.
That was a bit of another handwave. Europa had some many amazing issues, and some of them were known but went unfixed--read about the Cora 1 and Cora 2 tests, for instance, where the Coralie upper stage was to be tested in ground-launched seperate tests (Cora 1 configuration). Once that worked, the Astris third stage would be added, allowing testing of both of the new stages for Europa to be tested while they verified the aerodynamics and modified Blue Streak (Cora 2 configuration). The issue? Of three Cora 1 flights, two failed--and it was the second flight that worked. Cora 2 was never flown, they just stuck it all on a Blue Streak and hoped it'd magically fix itself. It didn't. (Surprise!) It'd probably take a bit more than we detailed to get everything worked out, but having the UK involved was handy, both from a development position, and from a funding one.
I'd also hope NASA would still have its strong relationship with Canada, even at times when US national prestige was in the forefront Canada still managed to get involved in NASA programs. And, of course, they also have their special status with the ESA, so the best of both worlds for them! (And, actually, the USAF as well as part of NORAD.)
No specific comments, but Canada does make an appearance in Part II.

For whatever it is worth and wherever it takes us. But IOTL the USAF to this day and in this budget environment still has not given up on putting wings on spacecraft, so I wouldn't doubt they would still be trying to figure out how to get that one past the politicians in ITTL as well. Why? You'd have to ask them, they won't tell me!
Well, among other things like SDI, they may get a shot at that with Reagan's Vulkan Panic-induced cash infusion--we've been batting around a "black projects" update from that, and I need to really sit down and think about possibilities. It doesn't help that even now, so much of their reasoning is classified, but NRO's been on a declassifying streak lately from that era, starting with Hexagon (which I really not to go pay my respects to) and which seems to actually be more than a fluke. Maybe in a few years we'll know more.
 
I just realised this. Only 196 views to go, and you'll be at 60,000!:eek:

And before Part II has even officially started as well!

Congratulations E of Pi and Truth is Life!:D:D
 
Well, SLS has to survive being cancelled for that, and for a white elephant that could be very tricky to pull off when Falcon Heavy comes online next year with 50-60% or so of the capability for about 10% the cost for.

This is true. I have no idea how that will work out in the end. Though Falcon Heavy has to fly first. People put the same faith into NASA that they are putting into commercial space, and when they were let down that turned to hate towards NASA. I would hate to see that happen with commercial space as well, so one step at a time with both of them. That being said, trust me, I am a huge SpaceX fan and want to see them succeed with both the Falcon 9 and the Falcon Heavy. And whatever comes next...

e of pi said:
The point is that the F1 is a great engine, and it'd be darn handy if it hadn't die. It's actually a bit of a handwave here--it'd be arguably more sensible to just keep building Saturn 1Bs, or to switch to Titan IIIM or something instead of building a new Saturn 1C--but we wanted F1 for Multibody. So Saturn 1C it was--a proposal which really wasn't talked about OTL.

While this is true, how many proposals have we seen since then that use the F-1 in a single or reduced number of engines configuration? It's actually not too far out an idea, and you have developed it well. (And again, it's even latched onto SLS for the moment. It may be as simple as not wanting to believe the F-1 is dead, I guess.) I love the multibody idea and really don't see why we couldn't have had something like that. As to Titan, well... I love the Titan, just something about the way it looked caught me as a child and I have had a soft spot in my heart for it since then. But given all the problems it has on both a logistics and systemic level, it would have been a nightmare had it stuck around longer than it did for all involved.

e of pi said:
Of three Cora 1 flights, two failed--and it was the second flight that worked. Cora 2 was never flown, they just stuck it all on a Blue Streak and hoped it'd magically fix itself. It didn't. (Surprise!)

Haha, well, if you close your eyes and wish real hard, anything is possible! Sadly, sometimes that's exactly the systems integration approach taken. Hope it all works despite any evidence to the contrary.

e of pi said:
Well, among other things like SDI, they may get a shot at that with Reagan's Vulkan Panic-induced cash infusion--we've been batting around a "black projects" update from that, and I need to really sit down and think about possibilities.

Oh, you are killing me here, I love black projects!

e of pi said:
It doesn't help that even now, so much of their reasoning is classified, but NRO's been on a declassifying streak lately from that era, starting with Hexagon (which I really not to go pay my respects to) and which seems to actually be more than a fluke. Maybe in a few years we'll know more.

Yes, I enjoy Dwayne A. Day's work on the history of that world. It was a very interesting time period all around.
 
The Saturn Multibody is far better that the Concepts the MSFC gave to NASA administration in 1968
Like Saturn INT-20 and INT-21 were Stages were partially fuel and Engine removed
What give 36000 to 116000 kg payload

but the Saturn Multibody is more flexible on Mission with lower cost as a INT-21
a singel S-IC/S-IVB 20000 kg (Apollo block III to Spacelab)
3x S-IC/ 1x S-IVB around 47000 kg (we beat INT-20)
but with more upper stages we get more
4x S-IC/ 4x S-IVB around 85000 kg (spacelab in orbit)
5x S-IC/ 5x S-IVB hello Moon, we will be back.
9x S-IC/ 9x S-IVB called it NOVA
 
Last edited:
The Saturn Multibody is far better that the Concepts the MSFC gave to NASA administration in 1968
Like Saturn INT-20 and INT-21 were Stages were partially fuel and Engine removed
What give 36000 to 116000 kg payload

but the Saturn Multibody is more flexible on Mission with lower cost as a INT-21
a singel S-IC/S-IVB 20000 kg (Apollo block III to Spacelab)
3x S-IC/ 1x S-IVB around 47000 kg (we beat INT-20)
but with more upper stages we get more
4x S-IC/ 4x S-IVB around 85000 kg (spacelab in orbit)
5x S-IC/ 5x S-IVB hello Moon, we will be back.
7x S-IC/ 7x S-IVB called it NOVA

Er, no. Stacking doesn't work that way.
But nevertheless, a HLV with 50-70 tons payload is more than enough
to lauch a great modular space station into orbit or to build a EOR/LOR mission - maybe even a mars ship.
 
Last edited:
Er, no. Stacking doesn't work that way.
But nevertheless, a HLV with about 50 tons payload is more than enough
to lauch a great modular space station into orbit or to build a EOR/LOR mission - maybe even a mars ship.

a 5xS-IC/ 5xS-IVB could bring a S-Ivb with LM and Apollo Block II into orbit, for Moon mission
but you have to re-force the module tanks and connect them by interstage to other modules.
and this not first time they had that Idea,
Boeing proposed to take 4 saturn V, lashed them together into Saturn V-4X(U) with 456 tons of payload!
 
Last edited:
a 5xS-IC/ 5xS-IVB could bring a S-Ivb with LM and Apollo Block II into orbit, for Moon mission
but you have to re-force the module tanks and connect them by interstage to other modules.
and this not first time they had that Idea,
Boeing proposed to take 4 saturn V, lashed them together into Saturn V-4X(U) with 456 tons of payload!

Wouldn't even work in Kerbal Space Simulator. ;-)
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't even work in Kerbal Space Simulator.

oh yes your so right.
Boeing proposed right after that, the Multipurpose Large Launch Vehicle and Advanced MLLV to NASA
A SSTO core version of AMLLV would launch 453 tons.
A two stage version with 12x260-inch solid booster launch 1560 tons.
AHLLV.png


IMHO Overkill...
 
Well, at the same time they were proposing TSTO all-hydrolox space planes that would provide cheap space access, so I wouldn't take these proposals too seriously, you know...
 
This seems a good time to point out that full specs for Saturn 1C and the Saturn Multibody family are now on the wiki (linked in my sig). Just for extra fun, the Saturn 1C first stage is actually the S-1E, and the Saturn Multibody uses the S-1F (Saturn Common Core) and the slightly-lightened S-1G (Saturn Common Booster). Clustering up to 4xS-1G around a S-1F may be doable, but the pads are not being set up for it. And 9 cores...sheesh. Like Uli_Stoiber said, with EOR and depots, even the 79 tons of Multibody H03 is plenty--if not overkill. And now my pizza has come off the ovens, so it's off this machine and back to the cabin and no internet. :)

Oh, and @Bahamut: T-1 week and counting. ;)

EDIT: Sorry, I was typing this in hurry on a slow machine, and originally said 2 weeks--the Management would like to apologize for any heart attacks this error may have caused.
 
Last edited:
@e of pi

Great! Very much looking forward to the next part!
It would be nice, if there was additional information in the wiki about the different Apollo spacecrafts and the AARDVark. There were some nice pictures around in the thread.
 
Last edited:
Top