Eyes Turned Skywards

Evidently no one is too worried about landing the load some miles away instead of right at the gates, and to be sure, an airship big enough to haul a 43 tonne Vulkan stage won't dock right at the gates either.
You wouldn't believe how slight an issue this is: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/images/content/167000main_ET118_4_516.jpg Wheels are a very long-solved problem. :)

As for the flated transport--it's...interesting. Drag is a pretty serious issue, and really it doesn't help a ton with moving around rocket stages. The Saturn 1C and Saturn Multibody core stages are all 6.6m, whereas that looks to be maybe 4m if that. A rocket stage would stick out significantly on all sides.

It seems like just the thing--a standard cargo plane for a standard rocket stage cargo! With DoD fingerprints all over it--Reagan ought to love it.
This reads like a "we had an idea!" patent, and the USAf really doesn't seem to have been interested, and I get why: When it comes to strategic airlift, the C5 is and was plenty. This is a clever solution to a problem that's not worth spending the money to fix, particularly not for the specific application of transporting rocket stages still to big to fit. Sadly, engineering has a lot of that kind of situation.
 
Just a reminder that there will not be an update this week as this TL is going on haitus while we rebuild our buffer and work on Part II. Currently, that's outlined to be at least 22 posts, with maybe some more to be added. Additionally, the Wiki page has been updated with a list of the posts in Part I, linked to them in this thread. If people would like to help with getting Part I ready for creation of a consolidated thread, I'd love for people to re-read the original posts to look for continuity errors, factual errors, spelling, grammar, and other things. Let me know by PM anything you see.
 
Hey, I'm trying to remember where I saw the proposal for a flat-bed jet transport. It looked like someone had taken a C-5 or the like and just crimped its fuselage down like a tube of toothpaste. The idea is, just load your awkward bulky cargo right onto the back, out in the breeze. Presumably one puts tarps on it and tightens them down real well with straps, but it's OK that there's drag, the engines have enough thrust to overcome it. This might work especially well for rocket stages, which are streamlined already pretty much; you probably don't even need the tarp!

...
I still don't remember where I first saw the idea, but here's the patent. It's a Lockheed design, the year was 1983. So assuming that the aero industry and the military aren't massively butterflied by the early '80s (and it seems that on the whole they aren't) the idea is, um, in the air right about "now" in ETS.
http://books.google.com/books?id=o9QDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=flatbed+cargo+plane&source=bl&ots=tH-CAxG3Cc&sig=JnTf_auUKD_m9-gbM1U6EanL8To&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5oBXT_7SDcHygge84PXfDA&ved=0CJABEOgBMAY#v=onepage&q=flatbed%20cargo%20plane&f=false
Popular Mechanics

I think where I saw it at the time was probably Popular Science, although I can't find a hit for that.
Edit: I quite specifically remember seeing earthmoving equipment on the back, which isn't on any of the pictures I've found so far.
 
There were zillion proposal for rocket transport and even rocket launch from aircraft

the Lockheed C.5 war very popular as Carrier and launch platform, a C-5 successfully launch a Minuteman ICBM in 1974!
were not the problem with cracks found in the wings, mid 1970s

Rockwell and Boeing proposed 747 for transport or launch platform.

in Soviet union they had similar ideas for Energia / Buran program
and build the biggest cargo aircraft of all time: Antonov An-225
800px-Antonov_An-225_with_Buran_at_Le_Bourget_1989_Manteufel.jpg

It had to transport Shuttle and Energia parts to the Baikonur cosmodrome.
and yes they study the use of An-225 as launch platform the MAKS project.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/makbiter.htm
 
the Lockheed C.5 war very popular as Carrier and launch platform, a C-5 successfully launch a Minuteman ICBM in 1974!
were not the problem with cracks found in the wings, mid 1970s

Rockwell and Boeing proposed 747 for transport or launch platform.

if you find pic's of these can you post please? (to my thread would be good.)

Just a reminder that there will not be an update this week as this TL is going on haitus while we rebuild our buffer and work on Part II. Currently, that's outlined to be at least 22 posts, with maybe some more to be added.

wow, look forward to Part II, can you post a link to it here when it's ready?
 
kool thanks. that 747 concept (unmaned?) goes back to at least the early 80's. (god i wish i could find some of that concept art. it had a J-2 in the tail of the 747, with a manned orbiter and it's rather smallish ET on top of the aircraft.)

It was an SSME, and a drawing of it is in the Air and Space Photos from Alternate Worlds Thread (I put it there).
 
It was an SSME, and a drawing of it is in the Air and Space Photos from Alternate Worlds Thread (I put it there).

i know i saw that i was/am looking for one that date's from the 80's that the caption said had a J-2. i know old pic, it is most likely an early concept pic.






~edit~ holy crap i found it at last.
 
Last edited:
about soviet space base MOK
can this be of help ?
http://buran.ru/images/jpg/18a-2_bolsh-stan_corr.jpg

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/faculty/sarig...a2001-4619.pdf
has pictures of 747 launch proposal,
an actual C-5 dropping a Minuteman,
a Maks OS
and Vozhushny(sp?)

for ALSV/AMSCI study for USAF in 1979-83 (Payload only 1590kg in 185 km orbit ),
Boeing and Rockwell proposed Boeing 747 as Carriers well heavy modified
Boeing put on back of 747 a empty fuel tank with a mini shuttle attached
inside the 747 is a huge Fuel tank and Shuttle SSME Engine in tail (alternative 7 x RL-10 engine)
this rocket engine put 747 in into a high-angle climb.
during the climb fuel is pumped into Mini Shuttle external fuel tank (to save extra weight in isolation material)
on top of climb in altitude of 11.3km, the the mini Shuttle launch (it got 9xRL-10 engines) from the 747.
Last one makes a fast dive otherwise the Shuttle hits the 747 Tail-section.
http://www.pmview.com/spaceodysseytwo/spacelvs/sld053.htm
http://sites.google.com/site/spaceodysseytwo/spacelvs/alsvb79a.jpg

Rockwell solved that problem by proposing a V tail on 747
it's Shuttle use also external fueltank but also has fuel tanks in the Shuttle it self (engine one SSME and 2x RL-10)
http://www.pmview.com/spaceodysseytwo/spacelvs/sld054.htm
http://up-ship.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/alsv1.jpg

odd, this payload of 1590kg with Payload bay size: 1.52mø x 2.74m
the X-37B has payload of 1000 kg? with Payload bay size: 1.2mø × 2.1m
coincidental ?
 
Ick. Air-launch has never made a ton of sense for true orbital in my book. That system from Boeing or Rockwell has a gross mass of 125 metric tons for a payload of 1250 kg--admittably to a sun-synchronous orbit, which is a bit harder to get to than a simple LEO, but still...Falcon 9 has about 8 times the payload at only 4 times the mass. Frankly I'm not sure that adding the complexities of airlaunch could ever create real operational savings, and the USAF appears to have agreed that the tiny payload meant that the operational uses weren't worth it. And it's not like it includes the 747 in that mass, either, that appears to just be the launch vehicle portion. It'll probably get looked at...actually, it may end up in something I'm writting for Part II about post-Vulkan Panic DoD studies, but I can't see it actually moving forward very far in Eyes Turned Skyward.
 
wow, look forward to Part II, can you post a link to it here when it's ready?
It'll be being posted here when it's ready, so...yeah, you'll hear about it if you follow this thread. :) For the record, that outline of 22 posts covers 1982(ish) to about 1990/91. There's some overlap with Part I on the planetary exploration side before '82, but the manned side will mostly be picking up from '81/'82.
 
It'll be being posted here when it's ready, so...yeah, you'll hear about it if you follow this thread. :) For the record, that outline of 22 posts covers 1982(ish) to about 1990/91. There's some overlap with Part I on the planetary exploration side before '82, but the manned side will mostly be picking up from '81/'82.

great look forward to it.
 
It'll be being posted here when it's ready, so...yeah, you'll hear about it if you follow this thread. :) For the record, that outline of 22 posts covers 1982(ish) to about 1990/91. There's some overlap with Part I on the planetary exploration side before '82, but the manned side will mostly be picking up from '81/'82.

22 Posts for a period of 8-10 years? Why do I get the feeling that there's gonna be a LOT of events occurring insofar as Space Exploration/Exploitation/Development is concerned ITTL?

And the odds are the effects of the Voyager Probes will be making there effect known during Part II, on account of them reaching most of their key targets during the timeframe specified.

In any case, will be well worth the wait IMO.
 
22 Posts for a period of 8-10 years? Why do I get the feeling that there's gonna be a LOT of events occurring insofar as Space Exploration/Exploitation/Development is concerned ITTL?
It's really not that many, about the same posts/year as Part I, which covered roughly the same time span in 24 posts (25 if you count Brainbin's interlude). Your average WWII timeline might cover about two month in a similar number of posts, it seems. :)
 
It's really not that many, about the same posts/year as Part I, which covered roughly the same time span in 24 posts (25 if you count Brainbin's interlude). Your average WWII timeline might cover about two month in a similar number of posts, it seems. :)

13-14 years in 25 posts. I'd almost forgotten.

Points 2 & 3 I raised less than 5 hours ago still stand, however - especially Point 3.:)
 
Ick. Air-launch has never made a ton of sense for true orbital in my book. ...

It's always seemed to me that the advantage, if any, would mainly accrue if one can launch at seriously supersonic speeds--Mach 3 was actually attained in the 1960s with both the SR-71 and the B-70 Valkyrie bomber, and that seems about the limit of straightforward jet-type engines. I've been fascinated by Skylon lately, with its cooled-air-intake airbreathing strategy it can plausibly get up to Mach 5 in airbreathing mode. 1600 meters/sec rocket ignition speed makes a serious reduction of propellant required to reach orbit. Even Mach 3, call it a round 1 kilometer/sec, is a real help. And of course in these proposals* the airplane launch platform is completely reusable, as could be the orbital return stage and depending on how ambitious one wants to be, possibly the engines and even some or all of the fuel tanks. If we ignore those possibilities and pursue the "cheap numerous disposable rocket" concept (we really ought to be reusing the entry vehicle though) we have a rocket that is scaled down considerably from a ground launched one.

However, unless one envisions a lot of launches, clearly a launch airplane that can achieve even Mach 3 (and then maneuver at that speed, at those altitudes, to give the rocket a good clear separation and a good trajectory for orbital launch) is a very specialized item. Simply adding a booster stage to the same rocket for ground launch costs a lot of mass but it's mostly propellant; I think it was in the SSTO thread some months back I asked what fraction of the cost of a launch is the fuel, and was told it's darn little. If we are mass-producing ground-launch boosters, and have an efficiently running launch site, then I can see why the economics of this kind of high-speed air launch has never been appealing.

The more realistic proposals that rely on existing types of subsonic jet seem to offer little advantage. It's very nice to be able to choose one's effective launch site by flying there from any of the very many big airports there are in the world. But on the other hand using even something as big as the C-5 or Ruslan we can't lift all that much rocket system mass.

Looking over your canonical posts on the Wiki, I don't see any detailed breakdowns of the system masses of the Saturn 1C or Saturn Multibody series, nor even a lump sum launch mass. I think somewhere or other you've said how much the F-1A engine is upgraded over the OTL F-1, which I believe delivered 600 kiloNewtons of thrust (with a mass of about 7 tonnes). I am guessing a standard Saturn 1C with typical 20+ tonne payload stack (including the escape system) masses somewhere between 540 and 600 tonnes on the pad. Say we can knock about 30 percent of that off by air-launching it at Mach 3--the reduced stack (mostly reduced by downsizing the first stage considerably--but that's a hit at the economics of just using the standard 1C or upgraded Multibody stage, now we need a new one specialized for this mission!) still is a payload for what amounts to an SST/stunt plane of over 400 tonnes! The fuel load for the airplane doesn't have to be as much as it would for a serious intercontinental bomber or SST, because we don't want to cruise for hours to travel long distances, we just want to climb to full speed and altitude fast and return a much lightened airplane (that can take its sweet time about it) to base. Still even an aggressively limited fuel load will mass something between 5-10 percent of the takeoff weight, and it doesn't seem realistic for the airplane itself to weigh less than its payload. So all up we have a takeoff mass of something in the ballpark of 800-1000 tonnes, which puts even the Mriya Ruslan derivative to shame.

By launching subsonic we can make the airplane simpler, with much more efficient subsonic aerodynamics. But we will be saving very little rocket propellant mass, even if the rocket engine efficiency can be made better for a stratospheric than a sea-level launch. So I think it comes out even heavier than the supersonic version (though it might need a shorter runway).

But a zero airspeed, zero altitude launch costs relatively little extra pad weight compared to a subsonic launch.

I'm all for making giant monster airplanes, so much the better if they can zip along at Mach 3 or even higher supersonic speeds. (I'm assuming we are talking over-ocean flight paths here of course!:p) But fun is fun, and serious business is something else I guess.:(

Here's something NAA though might be serious business in the mid-60s though.

Conceptually it's like Spiral, but I like that 11 tonne lenticular reusable vehicle! And the article says the system was fully reusable, including the winged second stage rocket. Which I guess could propel the orbiter capsule into orbit, or a near-orbit the spacecraft could circularize with onboard OMS, but survive reentry mainly because it would be a lot lighter empty of fuel, so the re-entry heating phase would be brief (due no doubt in part to very high accelerations, so it had better be robust). Then of course the second stage has a long flight back to a base, or needs to land at a second base far downrage, and somehow be brought back to the launch base.

All up takeoff weight is remarkably similar to a Saturn 1B. But of course the 1B could launch close to twice the mass into orbit! To match the minimal capabilities of the Saturn Multibody with no boosters on the sides, it would have to be twice that mass...:eek:

Still bigger than Spiral though, and earlier. I don't know if the estimates of the structural masses of the airplane and the winged second stages were any more realistic than those the Spiral program claimed for their respective stages.

If not, realism might raise the take-off weight considerably, and persuade ditching the idea of re-using the orbital rocket stage.

-----------------

*Not Skylon of course, which is SSTO and lands the whole thing for 100 percent reusability--but that's why it's an advanced concept that remains to be proven! And who knows how the economics would really work out.
 
It's always seemed to me that the advantage, if any, would mainly accrue if one can launch at seriously supersonic speeds--Mach 3 was actually attained in the 1960s with both the SR-71 and the B-70 Valkyrie bomber, and that seems about the limit of straightforward jet-type engines.
1) the higher you get, the less dense the air and the better expansion ratio you can have on your engines.
2) 700mph is nothing to sneeze at. It's not quite the speed advantage the earth's rotation gives you at e.g. Canaveral, but is available in any direction you want.


Still, it really is hardly worth it, which is why next to no one does it now. (Note that the one air-launched system, ?Pegasus? is blasted expensive per kg to orbit.)
 
2) 700mph is nothing to sneeze at. It's not quite the speed advantage the earth's rotation gives you at e.g. Canaveral, but is available in any direction you want.
Yeah, but even that makes only about a 5% difference in mass ratio required for launch.
Still, it really is hardly worth it, which is why next to no one does it now. (Note that the one air-launched system, ?Pegasus? is blasted expensive per kg to orbit.)
Indeed. It's enough to make you wonder what the Birdzilla--er, sorry, "Stratolaunch" people are thinking. I really don't see anything in Stratolaunch that'd reduce launch costs instead of increasing them. Fuel is cheap--according to Elon Musk, Falcon 9 costs about $200,000 to fill the tanks, which is about $2.50 a gallon, which is about 0.51 Euros to the liter or 0.43 pound per liter, for those Brits on the board. Designing and building the largest aircraft the world has ever seen? Expensive.
 
Looking over your canonical posts on the Wiki, I don't see any detailed breakdowns of the system masses of the Saturn 1C or Saturn Multibody series, nor even a lump sum launch mass. I think somewhere or other you've said how much the F-1A engine is upgraded over the OTL F-1, which I believe delivered 600 kiloNewtons of thrust (with a mass of about 7 tonnes). I am guessing a standard Saturn 1C with typical 20+ tonne payload stack (including the escape system) masses somewhere between 540 and 600 tonnes on the pad.
I'm planning on putting some of the vehicle stats up on the wiki at some point, but here's some data: Saturn M02 liftoff mass with a 20.6 ton Spacelab-bound payload is 619 metric tons. The F-1A stats can be found here. As you can see, it makes 9123 kN (not 600 kN). The J2S second-stage engine is here, and as you can see makes about 1138 kN.
 
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