Eyes Turned Skywards

Shooter

Banned
Not the right assessment...

Yeah, I don't believe the CSM had the delta-V with the LM attached to perform that kind of plane change. However, without the LM, there's a lot more delta-v available (same fuel mass, smaller payload), but now you're talking about sacrificing a landing (and a Saturn V) for a stunt they can't be sure at the time will generate results. Like Truth already said, it's a nifty thought, but there's insufficient reasons to make that decision at that time.
The selection of polar or equatorial lunar orbit is purely one of desire. The two are absolutely the same when it comes to Delta-V Margin.
The choice must be made before time of launch during the planning stage. A few arc seconds of trajectory change during transit burn and the ship arrives in polar orbit.
 
Is NASA going to be able to use the somewhat greater capability of the M02 to design a new Apollo CSM upgrade to start sending up more than 3 astronauts per launch in pretty short order? That is, is the M02 going to be man-ratable pretty quick, being a very straightforward upgrade of the Saturn 1C, just a stretched 1st stage that has designed-in reinforcements for attaching various side boosters, so actually it should be stronger than strictly necessary. (Or is that an argument against, since without the side boosters that extra weight just adds unnecessary safety factor at some cost of weight?)

(Could we be reminded, what's the weight limit of the standard Sat 1C to that same orbit? How much of an improvement is the M02?)

Anyway I see you've (well, Polish Eagle has) drawn the M02 with a CSM, but that doesn't look any bigger. From other discussion I seem to remember that the mass of a CSM isn't just a matter of external dimensions but also stuff like what fills the various bays of the SM--more or less fuel for instance, possible auxiliary cargo. So at any rate without redesigning the SM much or even at all, the higher capacity of the M02 can loft somewhat more supplies along with the fixed crew of 3. But to get more crew than 3 into the capsule we really should make it bigger, shouldn't we?

I seem to remember there was talk of cramming more than 3 astronauts in a CM of standard dimensions, or has this actually been done already? It seems risky to me to do that though. At any rate if this is what they are already doing or plan to do soon, while putting a fourth or even fifth astronaut with associated space suit and acceleration couch and so on won't itself add a lot of weight, providing 33 or 66 percent more oxygen, water, food etc for the maximum emergency duration NASA safety standards prescribe might add a significant amount, and that can be what fills up some of the extra margin of lift

Alternatively it could loft a standard Sat 1C type CSM to a higher orbit, but it isn't clear that would accomplish anything useful.

Maybe, the idea is to wait until the Heavy is manrated for the next big increment of human-bearing orbital spacecraft? Using the various M+2/3 (I put the "+" in there to indicate some nonzero number of solid boosters) seems questionable because ITTL no one is used to the idea of launching humans with solid fuel rockets (and in OTL we have some cause to regret doing so!:() so the next increment in capability beyond a M02 would be to either expand the stages (I don't see why an M03 would be particularly a bad idea though, but the increment over the -2 might not be worth it) which would spoil the genius of working with standardized unit stages, or to strap on liquid-fuel sidekick boosters. So that's the H-series, which are really dramatic increments indeed!

I realize you can't just scale up the dimensions of an Apollo CM and pack it with more mass in proportion to volume; that would raise the mass loading of the heat shield per square meter. But it should be doable, even with a less dense packing of the CM to hold the shield mass loading constant, to send up 10, 15, even 20 astronauts at once in a Big Apollo CM-- by then you might not want to even call it Apollo any more of course.

And the great thing is, you can have already built up quite a big space station for this busload of astronauts to get to work in, because before the H03 is ready some considerable time will have passed where the M series is being developed and serious numbers of station modules of good size will have already been sent up, to be assembled by crews riding up in the old-hat CSMs launched by M02s or even old-fashioned Saturn 1Cs.

And of course there would be a whole series of incremented Aardvarks to take advantage of the increments of the M series, because it's OK to use the gradual increments from solid boosters as if it blows up or whatever it's only money, not lives, except insofar as some orbiting crew needed those supplies, but that's what multiple pads are for, or if the rocket is grounded, early returns with much grumbling. An M43 can lift considerably more than twice as much to that orbit as the M02 could and that might be as much as 3 times the baseline Saturn 1C capability. So the growing station can have lots and lots of supplies.

Assuming of course the taxpayer pays for all these NASA launches!:p

Which given views Truth is Life has expressed about Reagan's attitude toward nonmilitary space activities, and assuming the Reagan administration is not butterflied away (as presumably it won't be here) is indeed a question.

OTOH DoD might find itself wanting to buy a few Apollo variant CSMs for its own purposes?

(And heck, if they are daring military soldiers doing something hush-hush with lots of importance, they might want to go ahead and risk using one of the M+ systems, damn the risk...:eek:)

OTL, and as of your POD, I believe it was a ruling of the Eisenhower admin that all manned space missions would be NASA operations--some of the Shuttle flights did wind up being DoD "owned" but still NASA operated I believe. Of course while all orbital flights have indeed been under NASA's banner, OTL there were all those pesky DoD independent manned space ops they kept planning--DynaSoar, then the MOL. They didn't fly, but quite a lot of taxpayer money was spent getting them almost ready to fly before being belatedly cancelled. So obviously this rule about human in space = NASA flight wasn't held to be too strict. Again and again, DoD (or factions within DoD) sold the SecDef and his higher-ups in the White House on the idea that there was a valid manned military role in space that couldn't or shouldn't have been folded into some NASA operation on a part-time basis. Only to have the rug pulled out from under it, consistently, of course. But not vetoed from the get-go.

So, will a Reaganesque doldrum in NASA manned launches be shadowed by unprecedented all-DoD manned launches, or will NASA get a few manned missions only with a quid pro quo that much or all of an ostensibly NASA mission will be defense stuff they can't talk about?

I'm willing to wait and see. I have to admit, this modularlized comeback of Saturn has me excited.

I really want to see what a 60+ ton manned orbital ship looks like!

Hopefully not like the Space Winnebago from Spaceballs.:eek:
 
What are the red tubes on the sides of the Saturn Multibody SRBs?

I think that's just to illustrate these are stretched and standardized stages, and maybe to underscore that they are also reinforced with the upgrade capability of snapping on various other stages--solids or more standard Stage 1's. I suppose the real rockets will have a standard paint job?

If I ask how an ultra-heavy composed of four additional first stages strapped onto the sides of one core stage would be designated (U?) will y'all threadmasters get mad at me? Then if you're still talking to me I'd want to know what its lift to that orbit would be?:D

I suppose that would overstress the standard reinforcement and require a new core stage design which is clearly out of bounds?

I might get shot if I ask about wrapping six of the things around the core for a 7-stage booster...

Besides now we are totally dwarfing the second stage.

Of course we could have two of them (the middle one specially reinforced) or an eighth first stage on top of the core with a standard second stage, for 3 stages. Or crossfeed from the six outer bottom stages for some sort of UltraFalcon monster and an effective 4 stages--seven engines going at once stage zero, one standard 1st stage boosted stage 1, a second standard 1st stage 2, a -3 standard second stage for the third stage, and a ginormous payload on top.
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Oh, never mind. Kludging around on the Silverbird I made some guestimates as to the parameters of the M02, then checked it by approximating an H02 and that checked out pretty well. Then I went nuts with the crossfeeding 6-added core monster and it only came to maybe 80 tons to orbit. It would make a lot more sense to just break the payload down into the 60 ton part and an extra 20 ton part and send the latter supplement up on another M02; that's just 2 stages versus strapping on a problematic 4 extra...:(

I think I am learning a bit about the tradeoffs of big rocket designs. That's something, isn't it? Let's hope so.

Part of my problem there was that 2 of effectively 3 stages (all 7 engines burning on 6 outer engines fuel; then the core burning up its own fuel, then the 2nd level stage, which I presume uses LH2, right?) are using the lower ISP (I guessed it would be about 350) of kerosene fuel. Also I was guessing rather wildly as to the thrusts of each standard stage; I know y'all put the numbers for the Sat 1C in there somewhere but I can't guess what page that would be on. But I think what kills it is the low ISP of the kerosene engines. It's OK for the first stage cluster but not so much for second stages and up.

I quite realize we're not supposed to be crossfeeding either, I just wanted to see what "ultimate" looks like!
 
What are the red tubes on the sides of the Saturn Multibody SRBs?

Nitrogen Tetroxide, IIRC. The Titan III SRBs had a big tank of the stuff on the side in the same configuration, and the N2O4 was used to control the nozzle on the SRB.

@Shevek: Back on page 10, the development of the Block III+ Apollo CSM and its Mission Module is explained. As for why the M02 launches the CSM, as I mentioned in an e-mail to e of pi, once the stretched first stage is in production, it might be cheaper to use it for all Saturn IC derivatives than to keep the production of both first stage variants open.
 
If I ask how an ultra-heavy composed of four additional first stages strapped onto the sides of one core stage would be designated (U?) will y'all threadmasters get mad at me? Then if you're still talking to me I'd want to know what its lift to that orbit would be?:D
Whatever its going to be, its Kerbal. :D
 
Many a modular mickle maks a muckle!

Nitrogen Tetroxide, IIRC. The Titan III SRBs had a big tank of the stuff on the side in the same configuration, and the N2O4 was used to control the nozzle on the SRB.

Oh. But why then would it need to be on the M02 with no boosters, or the Heavies where the "boosters" are more Saturn 1st stage units, which would control their nozzles and orientation the same way any such stage would, by valving and gimbaling?


@Shevek: Back on page 10, the development of the Block III+ Apollo CSM and its Mission Module is explained. As for why the M02 launches the CSM, as I mentioned in an e-mail to e of pi, once the stretched first stage is in production, it might be cheaper to use it for all Saturn IC derivatives than to keep the production of both first stage variants open.

Right, now I've reread that and reminded myself, I'd forgotten! Apollo IIIi is sort of a Soyuz-type expansion, where the capsule of the CM is indeed packed full of 5 astronauts and then upon achieving orbit the "Mission Module" is retrieved from where it is stowed during launch, pretty much where the LM was on Block II Apollo, behind the CSM on the stack.

This was exciting not just because the IIIi was a 5-crew upgrade, but because that Mission Module could be custom-tailored for a very wide variety of missions. Using a standardized CM interchangably for just about any mission, the MM could simply be used for more storage, easily transfered to a space station, or used as in a free-flying mission as a mini-temporary space station itself.

With this setup both the Service Module and Mission Module can be mixed and matched to use the full range of a launch rocket's capability in a variety of ways; one could scale down the crew in the CM, down to as few as two, I guess, and have them operate in a stripped-down MM (or perhaps none at all) with a somewhat expanded SM, and send them to a very high orbit indeed--the SM has to be upgraded to give them the delta-V to come back to Earth then. Or send up to 5 to a low orbit with a real Cadillac of a Mission Module, loaded with supplies and lots of nifty gadgets and elbow room, with a truncated SM because return from the low orbit is easy.

I presumed the M02 had significantly more oomph than the Saturn 1C because that first stage is extended, but when I was flailing around upthread trying to find the Saturn 1C specs the numbers I was finding were about a 20 ton capability to a Skylab orbit, which is just a few tons less than the M02.

Still, a few tons is a few tons; with the already adopted IIIi system, one can add it into the SM or MM, the latter more likely, readily enough with minimal modifications of any of the standard elements of the stack. Nice.

The one thing one cannot do is expand the crew capability beyond 5; we are working with the legacy dimensions of the Apollo CM and it is already packed sardine-style.

So using the much greater boost capability of the Heavies for manned launches suggests a major upgrade, if and when we get that far.

I have been stoically refraining from asking about some sort of DynaSoarish spaceplane manned stage, because I know the authors have little patience with it. However, would anyone consider revisiting the Lenticular configurations considered in the early design phases of Apollo?

I wonder if that would be more suitable for a heavy manned vehicle.

Also--DoD OTL drove a lot of the expansion of the Shuttle from the minimal spaceplane Faget wanted to the big delta, because they wanted bigger payloads but also because they wanted lots of crossrange, for quick and flexible recovery from polar orbits. Here, DoD is getting the modular Saturn Expansion series as the primary customer, with NASA along for the ride. Let DoD with their bloated budgets develop fancy high-crossrange high-lift reentry systems then! Then if it seems desirable, NASA can borrow the alternative configurations back!

Another direction for developments--now that the basic heavy launch rockets are getting standardized, a possible next step to me seems to be to ruggedize the standard elements--the standard first and second stages, that is--for horizontal assembly and transport to the pad, then hoisted up to vertical launch configuration, again Soyuz-style.

This might also greatly speed up the process of assembling a launch vehicle. Just have the two stage elements stockpiled empty on their sides in a big but low-roofed warehouse, grab as many 1st stages as needed (1 or 3 that is) and one of the two types of second stage, roll them on rails to the assembly area, snap them together with the payload, then roll them out to the pad, hoist them and fuel them and crew them and off they go.

Also if the stages are redesigned for horizontal assembly that opens up possibilities for air-launch--assemble, slide them empty of fuel under a big carrier airplane carrying the propellants, take off and load in fuel and crew while flying to the launch range. At optimal altitude, speed, and heading, drop it and fire the rocket.
 
If I ask how an ultra-heavy composed of four additional first stages strapped onto the sides of one core stage would be designated (U?) will y'all threadmasters get mad at me? Then if you're still talking to me I'd want to know what its lift to that orbit would be?:D

In that instance, you'd be designating it Saturn U03 - U = Ultra, 0 = no SRBs, 3 = stretched S-IVC upper stage.


I suppose that would overstress the standard reinforcement and require a new core stage design which is clearly out of bounds?

Obviously yes. As so to keep production costs down by using a few, common parts for the whole range of designs.


I might get shot if I ask about wrapping six of the things around the core for a 7-stage booster...

A seven CCB design goes right past overkill and straight into ludicrous-kill!:eek::eek:


Part of my problem there was that 2 of effectively 3 stages (all 7 engines burning on 6 outer engines fuel; then the core burning up its own fuel, then the 2nd level stage, which I presume uses LH2, right?) are using the lower ISP (I guessed it would be about 350) of kerosene fuel. Also I was guessing rather wildly as to the thrusts of each standard stage; I know y'all put the numbers for the Sat 1C in there somewhere but I can't guess what page that would be on. But I think what kills it is the low ISP of the kerosene engines. It's OK for the first stage cluster but not so much for second stages and up.

IIRC, the Rocketdyne F-1A produced 810,000 Kgf at sea-level with an Isp of 270s, climbing to 310s in a vacumn. While the J-2S produced 112,500 Kgf with an Isp of 436s in a vacumn. All that said though, Thrust and Isp are not the only deciding factors when building a Launch Vehicle. You also must consider the payloads, the flexibilty, and the costs involved. And then select the one(s) which can meet all of the requirements within the acceptable costs.
 
So the time comes for ELVRP II to show it's meat. Very interesting. So it's going to be the Saturn Multibody with 22-77 Tonne LEO payload - depending on orbit and configuration. NASA must be jumping for joy with the gift they've just been handed - even if the Soviets were the ones responsible for tipping things into their favour.

And I'll take now to suggest that you've provided yourselves - you and Truth - with an easier means of accomplishing a Manned Mission to Mars with Saturn Multibody. Not least on account of the improved payload volume - with a diameter of 660.4cm as opposed to the Titan Vs 457.2cm. This presumes constant diameters for stages and payload fairing, while the images indicate that Saturn Multibody can support 8-10m payload fairing - I'm gonna guess 841cm for the widebody fairing on Saturn M03.

As a prelude to the Soviet update - it's still the Soviet Union in the 1980s - the one I've actually been looking forward to the most - although you've long since realised that one!:p:p I can think of two LVs they have in mind - of which one was an OTL design that was rejected in favour of Energia/Buran - though both would essentially be the same design.

Really am looking forward to what next week provides!
 
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Oh. But why then would it need to be on the M02 with no boosters, or the Heavies where the "boosters" are more Saturn 1st stage units, which would control their nozzles and orientation the same way any such stage would, by valving and gimbaling?
Shevek, if you mean the red cylinders next to the SRBs, then if you look, they aren't on the Heavies or the M02. If you mean why the core stage changed color to orangish, it's because I think they'd switch to foam insulation with the core re-design vs. the legacy Saturn-style TPS. For the record (because I think it's nifty), the N2O4 wsn't used to control a nozzle. rather, when injected through valves in the nozzle, the N2O4 detonated, shaping the plume. this avoided the difficulty of gimbaling an SRM.

I presumed the M02 had significantly more oomph than the Saturn 1C because that first stage is extended, but when I was flailing around upthread trying to find the Saturn 1C specs the numbers I was finding were about a 20 ton capability to a Skylab orbit, which is just a few tons less than the M02.
Don't have my spreadsheet in front of me, but it's about a 2 ton difference, yeah. A slightly expanded SM or MM is a pretty likely use of the margin, but they won't have it available until about '84/'85. Until then, they're stuck with "just" the basic III+, which is coming online in '80.
The one thing one cannot do is expand the crew capability beyond 5; we are working with the legacy dimensions of the Apollo CM and it is already packed sardine-style.
Quite. Any more would need a major change to the outer moldline--a scale up, a change in the sidewall angle...basically a new capsule.

So using the much greater boost capability of the Heavies for manned launches suggests a major upgrade, if and when we get that far.
If and when indeed. Another interesting thing might be to note that the Heavy has a TLI capability slightly more than the M02. In rough terms, anything an M02 can put into a 185x185 28.5 degree orbit (26 tons), a Heavy could put through TLI. For instance, a Block III+ CSM with enough of a SM stretch to be capable of LOI/TEI. But that's a matter for other posts in the future. :)

Here, DoD is getting the modular Saturn Expansion series as the primary customer, with NASA along for the ride. Let DoD with their bloated budgets develop fancy high-crossrange high-lift reentry systems then! Then if it seems desirable, NASA can borrow the alternative configurations back!
DoD gets most of what it wanted OTL from Shuttle from the two ELVRP II rockets--cheaper cost/flight and larger payload capacities. In the end, I suspect that the mission they had that dictated Shuttle's added cross-range requirements--the one-orbit polar launch and landing at Vandenberg--isn't enough here to drive an entire spacecraft dev program by itself here.
 
just a few ideas on the saturn variations being talked about. feel free to use.
(i will delete is asked.)
The one on the upper right is the INT-11, the proposal that the Saturn Multibody is based off of. The others are unrelated to anything in this TL. Saturn 1 upper left, a multi-core version of the Saturn V (as opposed to the Saturn 1C) centered, Jarvis in the lower left, and IIRC a Saturn 1 with a titan II as upper stages in the lower right. You're starting to re-use your images man, I know I've seen this one before.
 
(I don't see why an M03 would be particularly a bad idea though, but the increment over the -2 might not be worth it)
Like I said, it's a lift-off T/W thing. Sea level thrust of the F1A is almost dead-on 8 MN, and generally rockets are designed to have at least 1.2 T/W off the pad. That allows a maximum gross lift-off without boosters of 666 metric tons. The M02 is about 640-650 depending on orbit selected (payload to 185x185 at 28.5 degrees is better than Spacelab/Skylab orbit by about 2 tons). There's not even margin for the extra dry mass of the SIVC (~6 ton increase over the SIVB's 12.9 tons), much less the additional 60 tons of fuel or any payload additions.

Assuming of course the taxpayer pays for all these NASA launches!:p
Always an assumption that must be justified. As it is, NASA's going to be lucky to have money to replace
Which given views Truth is Life has expressed about Reagan's attitude toward nonmilitary space activities, and assuming the Reagan administration is not butterflied away (as presumably it won't be here) is indeed a question.

OTOH DoD might find itself wanting to buy a few Apollo variant CSMs for its own purposes?
There's not much use--DoD Shuttle flights were manned because Shuttle required it to fly the ship and deploy the satellites. With unmanned systems very well proven, DoD doesn't have much of a need unless the rocket requires crew like Shuttle did.

I really want to see what a 60+ ton manned orbital ship looks like!
We won't see manned 60+ ton ships for a while now, even with all this nice hardware. When we do though, I can promise they won't look like Winnebagos, though. :)
 
So the time comes for ELVRP II to show it's meat. Very interesting. So it's going to be the Saturn Multibody with 22-77 Tonne LEO payload - depending on orbit and configuration. NASA must be jumping for joy with the gift they've just been handed - even if the Soviets were the ones responsible for tipping things into their favour.
Indeed. Jumping for joy and simultaneously trying to figure out how to convert LC39 to its fourth Saturn vehicle in 20 years--Saturn V, Saturn 1B, Saturn 1C, and now Saturn Multibody--without compromising ongoing Saturn 1C ops for Spacelab.

And I'll take now to suggest that you've provided yourselves - you and Truth - with an easier means of accomplishing a Manned Mission to Mars with Saturn Multibody. Not least on account of the improved payload volume - with a diameter of 660.4cm as opposed to the Titan Vs 457.2cm. This presumes constant diameters for stages and payload fairing, while the images indicate that Saturn Multibody can support 8-10m payload fairing - I'm gonna guess 841cm for the widebody fairing on Saturn M03.
The "widebody" fairing shown is 10 m. According to simple scaling (always dangerous, but a good first guess for lack of other info) of the 5m fairing on the 3m Titan IV core, up to an 11m fairing may be possible, but 10m seems like a good conservative estimate of what's possible. We're well aware of what it means for Mars--a 9m aeroshell using Viking heritage tech (~100 kg/m^2 entry mass, about 60%of that being payload) should be able to make about 4.6 metric tons to the surface. It also has implications for stations, and for potential lunar flights.

As a prelude to the Soviet update - it's still the Soviet Union in the 1980s - the one I've actually been looking forward to the most - although you've long since realised that one!:p:p I can think of two LVs they have in mind - of which one was an OTL design that was rejected in favour of Energia/Buran - though both would essentially be the same design.
Well, we'll have to see how what we worked out squares up with your guesses, won't we? Should be exciting.
 
Shevek, if you mean the red cylinders next to the SRBs, then if you look, they aren't on the Heavies or the M02. If you mean why the core stage changed color to orangish, it's because I think they'd switch to foam insulation with the core re-design vs. the legacy Saturn-style TPS. For the record (because I think it's nifty), the N2O4 wsn't used to control a nozzle. rather, when injected through valves in the nozzle, the N2O4 detonated, shaping the plume. this avoided the difficulty of gimbaling an SRM.

I didn't actually notice any red cylinders anywhere, and I assumed, wrongly, the orange stuff was just illustrative highlighting; I didn't realize it was a real feature of the rockets.:eek:

Don't have my spreadsheet in front of me, but it's about a 2 ton difference, yeah. A slightly expanded SM or MM is a pretty likely use of the margin, but they won't have it available until about '84/'85. Until then, they're stuck with "just" the basic III+, which is coming online in '80...
Quite. Any more would need a major change to the outer moldline--a scale up, a change in the sidewall angle...basically a new capsule.

I'm getting greedy I guess. Here you've gone and increased the human payload of the 1C by nearly 70 percent and now I want whole busloads of people lifted up at one go! I guess we should just kick back and assume that five people going up at a time is plenty improvement on OTL-sure the Shuttle could carry a few more, but not economically, whereas if we are satisfied with just 5 each batch of them goes on a mass-produced and thus increasingly cheap (and probably, increasingly reliable, if people don't get complacent and sloppy) system, so more launches for the same dollars, even granting that nothing is getting reused.

Another direction to improve things in of course is to start reusing the standard III+ capsules, by careful analysis of what parts get dangerously stressed during reentries, and redesigning the capsule to replace those parts and reuse the rest. Obviously the ablative heat shields have to replaced each time but I don't see a problem with designing them as a bolted-on outer layer that they just unbolt and discard and snap on new ones.

If I start thinking about trying to reuse SMs we'd be getting into dangerous territory so I won't. Economy there is again a matter of a standardized frame with modular specializations for each mission, and since I suspect most missions are just, um, shuttling, to an established space station in standard orbit, the missions will generally be the same, so an absolutely baseline standard can be made in production lots, with the occasional upgrade or downgrade costing somewhat more.

Mission modules on the other hand--there I think when an Apollo III+ departs a space station to return home, it makes no sense to take the MM, even stripped of supplies for the station, and yank it into a disposal orbit--except of course when the MM is now full of trash that needs to be disposed of. But generally they could just shunt it over to some storage zone--an orbiting junkyard essentially--and figure sooner or later they can strip it down for useful parts or melt it down and reuse it that way. The station will be accumulating mass with each MM that comes to it.

I was wondering if it would make sense to waive the MM on missions that are just shuttling astronauts to the station and back, but I guess not. Cutting down the mass means we'd need a bit less propellant, but that won't translate into serious savings--might as well spring for the full fuel load, get full use out of the fixed weight of the rocket stages, and then use the extra lift to deliver supplies to the station if nothing else. Also there is the safety issue--the MM provides much-needed living space. It might not be needed if everything goes smoothly, but if something goes wrong it's there to keep an undesired, unexpected delay from turning into a disaster. So MMs all around, at least on all launches of more than three astronauts.

Free-flying Apollo III+ missions will of course have to either abandon their MMs in orbit, adding to the problem of space junk (in a fairly tame form, it isn't a cloud of debris, it's a single concentrated trackable object--but sooner or later it will either deorbit unpredictably or become a cloud of debris!) or else use delta-V to decisively deorbit it. So no reusing those. Not unless it makes sense to put a rocket on it and send it by remote/automated control to join some established station where they'll put it in the junkyard.

If and when indeed. Another interesting thing might be to note that the Heavy has a TLI capability slightly more than the M02. In rough terms, anything an M02 can put into a 185x185 28.5 degree orbit (26 tons), a Heavy could put through TLI. For instance, a Block III+ CSM with enough of a SM stretch to be capable of LOI/TEI. But that's a matter for other posts in the future. :)

I was not thinking of transorbital stuff, not much anyway.

Manrating the Heavy should be easier than a new design or one evolved from a missile or satellite-launcher, but I guess it isn't a slam dunk. There will be a certain, hopefully low, but nonzero unfortunately, probability a standard first stage will fail; the probability the whole three-stage triplet will work OK will be no greater than the cube of the probability one alone will work smoothly. We are cubing a number very near to one, (1-e) where we hope e is a very small number, but the probability the Heavy first stage will go OK is (1-3e) approximately. And then the extra bric-a-brac involved in physically linking together three cylinders side by side, coordinating three rocket engines that aren't in a tight cluster but strung out some distance apart, and so forth lowers the number a bit more. Whatever the margins actually are on the M02, they will be lower on the H0(n). Of course "e" is just an educated guess, one can present rigorous arguments restricting it to a certain range--assuming everyone does what they are supposed to do, no one gets drunk, drops a wrench and forgets they did it let alone logging it, no one violates pre-agreed weather guidelines and launches in a cold snap out of parameters :)eek: ahem!) or with winds beyond them, quality controls are maintained and not allowed to lapse, etc. One can even try to factor those into safety factor estimates and then still be blindsided by a genuine act of God. Or deliberate malice.

But since a Heavy launch is guaranteed to be more risky, if only by some wispy fraction of a percent, than a standard single-first stage launch, programs will evolve toward it for manned flight only for a very good reason I guess. Another reason to be very patient.

For now. Thanks for the hint of hope though!

DoD gets most of what it wanted OTL from Shuttle from the two ELVRP II rockets--cheaper cost/flight and larger payload capacities. In the end, I suspect that the mission they had that dictated Shuttle's added cross-range requirements--the one-orbit polar launch and landing at Vandenberg--isn't enough here to drive an entire spacecraft dev program by itself here.

In vague generalities, DoD insisted on cross range because launch into polar orbit inherently means that one orbit later, the launch site (which is ideally the landing site--well, certainly for a reusable craft, which you don't want to have to ship to a distant launch site, but it wouldn't be crazy for DoD to argue they had a general need to keep Defense business restricted to Defense sites) would be guaranteed not to be there for a reentry after just one orbit. Depending on the exact nature of the orbit it might be days before Vandenburg came around to being in range again as the craft was approaching the reentry go-point. Well yes, but why exactly could they not plan orbits that had more convenient timing and why not be patient?

The only specific mission I've seen outlined that would require them to do a quick run up to orbit and then return to launch base, and might not allow the convenience of deliberately shaping the orbit so that while Vandenburg might not be in range after one orbit, Hawaii or Anchorage, Alaska would be--was the harebrained scheme of wanting the capability of being able to intercept a foreign satellite, grab it and take it back down to Earth with them!:eek:

Well, if some unnamed foreign power--lets make up a silly, improbable anonymous name in no way resembling anyone living or dead and call them the "Lussians"--were to take the position that that was legally speaking an act of war, I wouldn't call them crazy. They'd be on very firm ground indeed calling it piracy. And if they, guessing Americans who talked about wanting to do this had spent money to actually be able to because they might someday actually do it, were to outfit their craft with booby traps like say a motion-sensor detonated high explosive bomb, perhaps one with a 10 minute delay timer--well, it might be a little uncultured of them but within their rights if they want to expend delta-V on that--besides, any satellite the Defense/Intelligence cowboys would rustle like that might rate a self-destruct device just on general principles.

But that's the kind of thing they said they wanted to be able to do. And who knows what more sensible if chilling, but perhaps, once one's blood has been chilled, reasonably security-related real purpose this might be a bit of misdirection to cover? But right or wrong, this was just the kind of thing the Reagan Admin would champion, at least in principle.

So I am not sure the military would not think up some mission that did require military astronauts in space, and perhaps the ability to retrieve objects from space (I hope not stealing someone else's satellite, but whatever). So say they do a double-pad launch from Vandenburg, one rocket carrying a manned III+ variant with a mission module including a grabber arm, and the other being an empty reentry capsule they can stash whatever large object they are retrieving with a transstage. They get the object, whatever it is, remote-control the other capsule (a much modified Aardvark, essentially) over and put it in, then send it on its path down to get retrieved on the ground, then go home.

Or who knows what else they might decide to accomplish with a couple, or up to 5, military astronauts and the equipment one puts in an MM along with essential supplies?

The point here is, the rockets are off the shelf, they just grab a few from stocks. And Apollo III+ are turning into commodities, they don't have to actually design one, just requisition it. All they have to design is the MMs plus of course exotic stuff like retrieval shells, if that scenario ever actually comes up.

And I suppose it might if say a treaty with, oh let's choose someone real since this is less inflammatory and invidious, the Soviet Union for instance, specifies both nations are "trusting but verifying," and have the right to inspect the other's installations, in the case of satellites by choosing one at random and examining it closely, to make sure the other party isn't illegally weaponizing space for instance. Then it wouldn't even be a black budget sort of thing, retrieval capsules might then be specified and contracted openly explicitly for this purpose. (When an inspection amounts to testing to destruction, I suppose the nation that yanked the other guys' satellite would owe them compensation so they can launch another one--assuming no violations are proven of course! OTOH if they put a bomb in it, that would be very nasty indeed--but in this scenario instead of blowing up a reentering Shuttle it blows up an unmanned capsule--destroying whatever evidence the inspectors wanted to present, but also making their case for them.)

One benefit of relying on these sorts of evolved system instead of some grandiose one-size fits all thing like the STS is of course that when some odd specialized need comes along, one can tailor the system to it. The big benefit is, economies of scale cheapen the basic components. So DoD is mainly using standard units, supplemented by specialized stuff. The standard stuff comes cheaper than OTL.

I don't suppose they'd reinvent STS here. DoD might want to get around at this stage to developing DynaSoar though, if it were essential to return the crew to a secure site, or if they wanted to retrieve something small enough to fit in place of an astronaut.

You have convinced me that most of the time, a simple capsule return will be cheaper and work just fine, and maybe this means no one ever develops an actual spaceplane

Then again, that satellite-snatching team--they can reenter in a capsule but might have to go to a splashdown in the middle of the ocean rather than return to base. Why shouldn't they develop cross-range, if they have to cover contingencies that are unpredictable in detail?

The point here is instead of forcing everyone to choose between all having to use capsules or all having to use the same overengineered, oversized spaceplane, now the guys who want the spaceplane occasionally only have to design that, a small spaceplane for a handful of crew only, with no Main Engine rated to take them and a whole lot of fuel to orbit, no cargo bay flying empty most of the time--just finish the job almost done with DynaSoar, and if they want to be retrieving stuff massing tens of tons, then spring for developing say a lenticular shell that can open and close like a clam and doing two launches.

If everyone else is good with planned launches that can use economical standard capsules and has no need for hauling stuff down from orbit, these options are just exotic--and expensive!--variations paid for out of the military budget.
 
Hmmm...

Payload to LEO of Saturn Multibody:
M02: 21.6 metric tons
M22: 35.6 metric tons
M42: 44.7 metric tons
M43: 48.6 metric tons
H02: 54.1 metric tons
H03: 64.9 metric tons

Payload to LEO of Space Shuttle:
STS: 24.3 metric tons

Yeah. I like this timeline a lot better than what we got.

And I find it very plausible. With no need to develop Buran, but lots of interest in developing LEO stations, Soviet efforts were almost certain to go more vigorously to heavy lift capabilities, and the Reagan administration would not want to fall behind...

Keep up the good work, gentlemen. I can't wait for the next installment. Thank God for the Reds.
 
Hmmm...

Payload to LEO of Saturn Multibody:
M02: 21.6 metric tons
M22: 35.6 metric tons
M42: 44.7 metric tons
M43: 48.6 metric tons
H02: 54.1 metric tons
H03: 64.9 metric tons
Just to remind you, those are the numbers to a rather high-altitude, high-inclination orbit. The numbers for an Apollo-esque parking orbit of 185 km at 28.5 degrees are even better. With that orbit, an H03 can make it up to 77 metric tons. That makes for about 22 metric tons for the H03 through TLI, and with two launch EOR (one fuel, one payload), it could push about 57.8 tons of payload through TLI, which equals (actually slightly exceeds) the mass of the Altair lander from Project Constellation. I need to look at the architecture to actually make use of this capability, though. I'm not sure if they can use the SIVC from the fuel-launch H03 for it, or if they need a dedicated orbital stage--maybe another appropriately shortened SIVB variant placed as a third stage?
 
Any chance of the Russians going for Glushko's RLA now that they don't need to copy the Shuttle? A modular LV family providing 30 to 250 tons of LEO lift should be quite attractive...
Smaller derivatives with RLA-600/300 engines could replace Soyuz and Tsyklon as well.
Any insistence on copying the LH2 capacity could perhaps be satisfied with a Centaurski* 3rd stage for high orbit missions.

*Wonderfull, the right engine already exists, the RD-56 from 1971. (well, it did in OTL...)
 
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Any chance of the Russians going for Glushko's RLA now that they don't need to copy the Shuttle? A modular LV family providing 30 to 250 tons of LEO lift should be quite attractive...

It's possible. But don't forget that the RLA had a serious problem. It needed a 1,200,000Kgf Lox/Kerosene Staged-Combustion Cycle engine for its Core Stage. Even with extra funding, the chances of it being ready - in OTL design form - by the mid-1980s is, at the absolute best, extremely slim. 8 modified NK-33 engines would mitigate the issue somewhat, but leave a whole new problem in it's wake, massive engine clusters in its more powerful forms. 56 engines in the core stages in 250,000Kg payload RLA-165 form! Of which 48 must work together for the first 180-210 seconds!:eek::eek::eek:


Any insistence on copying the LH2 capacity could perhaps be satisfied with a Centaurski* 3rd stage for high orbit missions.

*Wonderfull, the right engine already exists, the RD-56 from 1971. (well, it did in OTL...)
That's an option, since the 7,900Kgf RD-56 had already been flight-tested by 1978 OTL, while the 40,000Kgf RD-57 had seen hot-fire testing on the ground OTL.

It will all be made clear in the next update.

EDIT: The N-1 was an extremely explode-y LV with just 30 NK-15 engines for the first stage, although it had about 30 other reasons for never making it past Block A shutdown, separation and Block B ignition.
 
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