Eyes Turned Skywards

...
P.S. If you're looking for a final topic of discussion: of the three options laid out at the end of the finale (reusable lander accessing a single moonbase, reusable "minibase" to remote destinations anywhere on lunar surface, short series of Mars landings), which would be your preference? I wrote those, and I'm kind of glad we're not planning to continue things because I can't quite make up my mind...

Well, I hope it isn't the final topic!:eek:

I actually prefer the middle option, extending operations far from Armstrong Base to other regions of the Moon. I think the pole is the right region to explore in detail if we have to be stuck with just one, but there would be a lot of desire to check out other regions in more detail than even Artemis managed; who knows what we might discover there?

The problem with a reusable lander--assuming that the idea is to provide it with just enough propellant to go one way, being refueled at the end to go the other--is one that horrified me with the generally engaging Selene Project timeline by sts-200. In that TL the Anglo-French Selene team have decided to go with "LSR," Lunar Surface Refueling, for their 1970s moon landing project. This means the manned lander will reach the surface of the Moon without enough fuel for the ascent stage to return them to Earth, but they will refuel from another unmanned vehicle that has landed previously, with enough propellant to send them on home.

What is terrifying about that is that once the descent to the Lunar surface has gotten well under way, there is no survivable abort option for them; either they successfully land near their refuel depot, close enough to bring the propellant over and pump it in, or one way or another they are dead. Unless they can survive on the Lunar surface long enough for Selene to launch another depot vehicle to land safely near enough for them to go get their fuel then, anyway. Since everyone in the TL except possibly the Russians have given LOR unreasonably short shrift, everyone is paying a higher price than they have to for the manned missions and so the effective payloads to the Lunar surface are eaten up by heavier than necessary manned facilities and higher than necessary fuel loads, so that makes it even harder.

But the general principle remains even with more efficient LOR or Lagrange basing of the Earth return vehicle--if we take advantage of the efficiency of one-way landing or takeoff missions, we sacrifice the ability to abort a landing back to orbit. I suggested in the other TL that this might be OK with a Moonbase in place--but even here where we have one I have cold feet about it.:eek:

At some point one must take off the training wheels I suppose, and take such risks. In your TL there is ample experience and engineering advances to justify it I suppose.

I am also nervous about using up Lunar ice by using the hydrogen in it as propellant. A less wasteful course would be to replenish just the oxygen, which is 6/7 or more of the mass of hydrogen-oxygen propellant mixes, using Lunar hydrogen reusably to extract plentiful oxygen from regolith, but retaining the hydrogen for use on the Moon, including this catalytic function of course.

So my wimpy, overcautious response to option 1 is to suggest continuing to use Earth derived hydrogen for both legs of descent and ascent (which means oversized tanks for the ascent, less than half full) but to refill the oxygen tanks with Lunar derived LOX for ascent. And since such a vehicle still would not have landing-abort capability (plenty of light hydrogen, but not nearly enough oxygen) that it be used only for bringing cargo down to the Moon and perhaps for shipping Lunar mass back up. The latter can include human beings, but I'd want humans to come down on different descenders riding in abort-to-orbit modules. This means we'd either be not using the ascent capability of the cargo vehicles for human operations, or we'd be accumulating lots of spare emergency ascent vehicles that sit unused for years and decades and eventually become unreliable.

I suppose a standard descent module could be developed that can take down either cargo or an extra-heavy abort-capable human crew module, retaining enough hydrogen to carry its dry mass with a modest oxygen refuel back to orbit or L-2. Then if it were desired it carry a cargo up, the small reserve of hydrogen would be supplemented by Lunar LH and LOX for a payload to be brought up as well.

If we continue, for safety's sake, to bring all humans down in modules fully fueled for a return to space, but switch over to sending them back there on more efficient hydrogen-oxygen fueled reused standard stages, we'd start to accumulate lots of hypergolic fuels I suppose.:eek: But these can possibly be put to good use, perhaps as fuel or anyway abort-return propellant for the reusable long-range exploration modules.

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As for the Mars options--well, Mars is a long way away. With the sorts of engines developed in the TL, we are looking at options no better than envisioned in the 1960s. We'd have to use slow minimum-delta-V orbits, exposing the crew to both GCRs and solar wind radiation for a very long time. Then upon reaching the vicinity of Mars, land something there. If we are going to improve on 1960s visions by developing in situ refueling, we need to ship considerable physical plant down to the Martian surface as well. Then, can we use ISR to do more than merely enable the landers to return to Martian orbit, and even go so far as to send up tanks of fuel for the mission to return to Earth--or must not the Earth return phase still rely on propellants supplied at launch?

Winchell Chung just happened to mention on his Atomic Rockets site that Deimos might have a lot of volatiles, including one hopes water--anyway any volatiles that contain hydrogen can be used, along with oxygen obtainable from many materials, as well as water, as a source for hydrogen-oxygen engine fuels. In this TL, it is asserted, rather plausibly one fears, that Phobos is pretty dry--but if Deimos is moister, then I'd suggest that the first destination of a manned Mars expedition would be that moon. Land the whole big ship on it--with the tiny moon's gravity it would be more like docking with it--and start digging out radiation-proof habitable voids in the regolith immediately, to be filled with inflatable habitat for the crew to move into. Then go prospecting for water or other useful volatiles; if it turns out there is plenty to be had (based on Lunar polar mining experience) start extracting it for the return. Then and only then move on with landers to Mars, relying on in-situ refueling of them to return back to Deimos.

Practically speaking it would be necessary to know in advance of any manned mission whether Deimos is a suitable ISR site or not; that would be done either by robot probes or by a manned mission with an assured return fuel supply just in case; the latter approach would be more justified if they were going to start assembling the anti-radiation habitat regardless of whether they find water or not. Or, robots might be able to get cracking on starting to accumulate an ice reserve that suitable tankage and plant might be sent on later to convert to fuel.

Come to think of it, blocks of ice might actually be superior to raw regolith as radiation shielding.

So--a Mars project strikes me as a worthy one, but it is a big big deal, involving a lot more than Apollo did. It is much more like von Braun's 1950s notion of lunar exploration with a massive lander in the hundreds of tons with a crew of 50 or so--first we need to establish a Deimos base, then a Mars base, before it is possible for a single person to land and be returned--oh, it is possible to do it as a stunt without all this investment, but the price of a low-value "quick" single astronaut landing and return would be not a lot less than the massive investment of doing it right.

Meanwhile--technology might advance to offer us better options. I like the nuclear fusion pulse idea those wacky dudes at the University of Washington are working on for instance, that is supposed to come on line by the 2020s or so. I see no reason why parallel developments would not be occurring in the ATL. So with a high ISP, relatively high thrust option developing that might allow missions to reach Mars and return within a three month window (or alternatively allow slower missions to deliver a much larger fraction of launched mass) there would be some wisdom in holding off on going to Mars until these nifty technologies are well in hand.

If in the interim, Lunar exploration and exploitation are being developed apace, the infrastructure for leveraging Lunar resources into multiplying the capability of Mars and asteroidal expeditions would also be there. Such infrastructure might even enable missions to operate in Venus's upper atmosphere, and perhaps control landing vehicles designed to operate at the high ambient temperatures (if we could only develop a power plant for them that would work sustainably--even a nuclear fission core probably won't be hot enough to get power out of efficiently at those high environmental temperatures. Oh well--maybe it would be OK to get power inefficiently, if there is enough of it...)

So I am willing to once again put Mars on the back burner, if it means that instead we move to Luna to stay, and start developing a serious industrial colony there.
 
The TL started with Leonardo da Vinci's quote from which the story took its title. I wonder what he would think of the people of today turning their eyes skyward... towards home.

armstrong.png
 
Thinking about our three choices a bit more--it seems to me that trying to reach points distant from Armstrong at the South Pole with ballistic vehicles is pretty nasty economically, even with free use of "abundant" polar water without worrying about depleting it.

Consider what it would take to reach the equator for instance. Low lunar orbital speeds are a bit under 1700 m/sec. Apollo allowed delta-V of 2500 m/sec for the descent stage of the LM, allowing for some hover time but also having to allow for gravity loss. The latter would be reduced with higher thrust somewhat, but I'm not sure how close to the bone we can cut it.

To reach the equator we don't need orbital speed, but we need to reach a speed pretty near it! An instantaneous impulse of 1532 m/sec could place it on the minimum-energy suborbital elliptical trajectory to reach a point on the equator; approaching such a landing it would of course be necessary to counter that velocity again, so the ideal minimum delta-V for this trip, one-way, is 3064 m/sec. Then, for at least some of the vehicle (and we want all of it, this being a reusable craft) to return to the South pole, we need to launch it again, and then land it, so total mission delta-V is 6128 m/sec. That's with ideal, instant acceleration; given that our craft probably doesn't want to take more than say two Earth G's of acceleration we need something like 80 seconds burn time on each of four burns, which gives Lunar gravity time to complicate the trajectory by some 140 m/sec at each one. Realistically we probably don't want to equip a Lunar vehicle with even that much thrust, what with the explorers being adapted to Lunar rather than Terran gravity and all, so gravity loss would be even worse.

But obviously to achieve 6 or 7 km/sec mission delta-Vs we will have to consume a whole lot of propellant. Just to go one way, we use more delta-V than Apollo missions did to land on the Moon from orbit. If we are using hydrogen-oxygen in high-efficiency engines getting say 450 seconds ISP that's great, the mass ratios would be more like a LM that only needed to do 2100 or so m/sec--but the savings is still marginal, and obviously designing a vehicle that can return not a third but its entire mass, dry tankage and all, back to base is a daunting proposition, especially since a part of that huge fuel load is hydrogen, which is so challenging to store.

I'm coming around to the idea that if we are talking about rocket-based excursion vehicles staging out of Armstrong base, and needing to return themselves in full, we had better forget about it. That leaves me concentrating on the idea of improving Armstrong logistics by the most efficient landers possible, and perhaps giving up my worries about abort capabilities and depleting polar hydrogen supplies.

The longer range exploration of the Moon probably would be best served by large, highly capable and long-term habitable surface rovers, solar powered and capable of life support of excursion teams of 3 or 5 or so people for many months. The Moon is small enough that a crawler proceeding at 5 m/sec, around 10 MPH, could go from pole to equator in under a week! To be sure, that's in a straight line (ie, a great circle on a meridian) with no swerving around to avoid rough terrain, and no stopping day or night, so someone has to be at the wheel continually. Realistically though, any site in the southern hemisphere could be reached during a lunar day, then explored with stored power (and suitable precautions for working in the Lunar night, such as well-insulated exploration suits--I don't think keeping the rover habitation warm would be a big problem) during the two-week night, then either work continues during the day (to observe perhaps what differences the high daytime temperatures make) or the rover moves on to another site or back to Armstrong base.

With a suitable path laid out by satellite observation and trail-blazing expeditions, it should be possible to drive all the way to the other pole in the course of one Lunar day, at somewhat higher speeds--along a blazed trail marked by transponders, an automated driver program should be able to handle the steering with minimal sensor input. Thus, development of a base to explore the northern hemisphere would be a matter of hauling things from the landing zone at Armstrong overland.

If then we can make vehicles that humans can live in for weeks and months that can make speeds of say 10 mph over unexplored terrain with a driver, and 20 or more on known paths with automated control, a single rocket port at one of the poles is probably sufficient to support exploration of the whole Lunar globe. Secondary bases are of course quite desirable. It should also be possible to develop ballistic vehicles that can deploy from these bases to deliver vital supplies or rescue stranded explorers on rare occasions. Ballistic travel would always remain too expensive for routine purposes but is available for emergencies.

A good path for the US program to take would be to encourage another power to go ahead and land another Moonbase of their own, which the Americans will offer to support with shares of polar water as well as offering support for their own expeditions, in return for the foreigners welcoming American explorers and supporting them. The North pole presumably has ice of its own, if perhaps in much lower quantities. With bases at both poles, the two hemispheres of the Moon are pretty wide open to exhaustive exploration, and with time, ingenuity and the incentive of the cost of shipments from Earth still remaining high, the base populations will presumably innovate devices made entirely or largely from Lunar materials to extend their abilities and cut down on their dependence on Earth.

In particular if the American program continues to concentrate on developing Armstrong, a greenhouse can be the beginning of Lunar gardening that can supplement and in time, with enough crops, redundant facilities to hedge against disaster, and a few supplemental animals, essentially replace food shipments from Earth. A polar base is particularly well suited for provisioning the Lunar population; not only is there ice available for expansion and countering losses, but sunlight is available at all times; with a suitable system of mirrors, greenhouses can be kept on a Terran day/night and possibly seasonal cycle of light and darkness, so plants that can't adapt to the basic Lunar day can still be cultivated at the poles without needing artificial light.

So I'm going to change my vote to making the most of Armstrong Base by maximizing the capability of lander craft, even if this means bleeding off hydrogen to return launches and possible eventual cargo exports.

It would seem no matter which Lunar option I pick, I'll remain outvoted by the Mars faction anyway.:p
 
Shevek,

The problem with a reusable lander--assuming that the idea is to provide it with just enough propellant to go one way, being refueled at the end to go the other...

Why do you make that assumption?

Perhaps the authors can clarify, but that assumption doesn't seem explicit in the last update. sts-200 is working with a considerably different architecture.
 
The TL started with Leonardo da Vinci's quote from which the story took its title. I wonder what he would think of the people of today turning their eyes skyward... towards home.

armstrong.png

So that's what the base is looking like. Fantastic. The footprints are a nice touch.

Does this include, perhaps hidden out of sight, the “semi-rigid” module that was supposed to be buried in regolith as a radiation shelter spoken of in the last operational update? From the angle, not everything might be visible, I assume...

I may obsess overly about the radiation and solar flare issues, but they are real dangers for long-term duty on the lunar surface (or anywhere else in cislunar space). Setting aside just normal cosmic radiation (whih would require more modest shielding (which the authors clarified a little in regards to the Orion some time back)...even with current instruments, warning times for flares will be short, which makes me wonder about the protection in the mobile labs and the planned "reusable remote sortie architecture" indicated in the final update. But that probably requires an answer from e of pi and Goblin.

P.S. Are all the objects in the distance on the horizon landers?
 
A couple more updates I didn't get chance to include this morning. First, an update to the spacecraft comparison image:

evolution.png


Plus a new image showing a selection of lunar landers and surface installations.
lunar-compare.png
 
Does this include, perhaps hidden out of sight, the “semi-rigid” module that was supposed to be buried in regolith as a radiation shelter spoken of in the last operational update? From the angle, not everything might be visible, I assume...

In fact the module you refer to is that sausage-shaped one sticking out from the side of the three 'cans'. This image is obviously shortly after its deployment, before it got buried ;)

I wonder if the polar location might mean full burial isn't necessary, just a good build-up of regolith on the walls, or dropping it into a trench, since the sun will never be very high in the sky...

P.S. Are all the objects in the distance on the horizon landers?

Yes. From left to right along the horizon we have a Luna-Pe coming in to land; two descent stages from earlier missions (or maybe the delivery vehicles for the Armstrong cans); on the other side of the solar arrays is a crew lander for the current crew; then the other side of the hill is the original Orion "Shack".
 
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In fact the module you refer to is that sausage-shaped one sticking out from the side of the three 'cans'. This image is obviously shortly after its deployment, before it got buried ;)

I wonder if the polar location might mean full burial isn't necessary, just a good build-up of regolith on the walls, or dropping it into a trench, since the sun will never be very high in the sky...

Good question. I am not aware of studies of radiation penetration at the lunar polls, and it's not clear whether NASA in this timeline has done extensive study of the subject, especially with regard to solar flares.

Since the 1999 (the beginning of Artemis in this timeline), there have been six x10+ x-class solar flares. Whether any of these coincided with an Artemis or Orion mission is unclear. But NASA would certainly have had an opportunity to measure their impact at the South Pole by this point, you'd have to think. And it would very, very much be worth doing so.

I'd play it safe and bury the module.

Yes. From left to right along the horizon we have a Luna-Pe coming in to land; two descent stages from earlier missions (or maybe the delivery vehicles for the Armstrong cans); on the other side of the solar arrays is a crew lander for the current crew; then the other side of the hill is the original Orion "Shack".

That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

It's no Clavius, but it's getting to be quite the littered site....

The new renderings are fantastic. That hab module on Discovery is a real monster.
 
A couple more updates I didn't get chance to include this morning. First, an update to the spacecraft comparison image:

Plus a new image showing a selection of lunar landers and surface installations.

Great stuff Nixonshead!


It's no Clavius, but it's getting to be quite the littered site....

That's to be expected when you have landers that leave behind descent stages.

EDIT: Also, Michel Van is totally right about that soundtrack choice.
 
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I'm going to back Shevek on the Mars question:

Mars (specifically, a manned mission) is definitely the next big destination which the US would want to gear itself towards -- after all, the basic American overarching manned mission philosophy has always been orbit->Moon->Mars, and we can see that it is no different in ETS. Thing is, the best way to get people on Mars, imo, is to continue with Lunar habitation research. There are a few threads I can pick out right now:

  • Long-term human habitation on a non-earth body: Armstrong, especially with greenhouse pods coming online, it should be possible to study how much can be done without resupply.
  • Long-term human habitation in space outside of Earth's magnetosphere: With enough infrastructure on the moon, maintaining a research station in lunar polar orbit (thus never going in shadow) should become possible -- heck, it already is, what with the Mesyat cluster available for far-side communications, but having support infrastructure on the moon would come in handy, say, for launching regolith (or various derivatives) for shielding.
  • ISRU: This one would probably be very important for a long-term Mars base. Lunar ice processing and moonconcrete production (for example) would provide some important proofs of concept and lessons for Mars. To be fair, there are certainly enough differences between Mars and the Moon that you can't use the Moon as a test-bed for Mars processes, but you can at least reduce risk and get political capital.
 
Well, I hope it isn't the final topic!:eek:

I actually prefer the middle option, extending operations far from Armstrong Base to other regions of the Moon. I think the pole is the right region to explore in detail if we have to be stuck with just one, but there would be a lot of desire to check out other regions in more detail than even Artemis managed; who knows what we might discover there?

The problem with a reusable lander--assuming that the idea is to provide it with just enough propellant to go one way, being refueled at the end to go the other--is one that horrified me with the generally engaging Selene Project timeline by sts-200. In that TL the Anglo-French Selene team have decided to go with "LSR," Lunar Surface Refueling, for their 1970s moon landing project. This means the manned lander will reach the surface of the Moon without enough fuel for the ascent stage to return them to Earth, but they will refuel from another unmanned vehicle that has landed previously, with enough propellant to send them on home.

Shevek,

Why do you make that assumption?

Perhaps the authors can clarify, but that assumption doesn't seem explicit in the last update. sts-200 is working with a considerably different architecture.

Well, it's my architecture, so I can help elucidate a bit. The key issue at hand is that at two landers a year, you start junking up the area around Armstrong relatively quickly. This isn't helped by the desire to create a cleared, berm-enclosed landing pad if possible to minimize dust erosion on base solar arrays and science gear--an expendable lander would have to be dragged off the landing pad after touchdown to some dump site (presumably with a rover, maybe even grabbing it with ATLAS, but still a pain). Armstrong really needs (all right, would very, very much prefer) a new reusable lander before the 2020 timeframe--it's a major step for reduced ops cost, and probably critical to expanding the base staff.

The question is if they'll actuall get that lander, and the scale of it. The architectures I was tending to come up with would be a new reusable lander, using an uncrasher (that is, a reusable crasher stage that would deposit the lander proper on a suborbital lunar trajectory and then head back to L2 for refill). The lander would, of course, be filled with enough prop to reach lunar orbit from touchdown and even from an aborted landing--once you chop the mission down from 5 km/s down to under 2.5, that's pretty feasible. My math and thinking about it was tending to favor hypergols or methalox--the reduced bulk of the prop and the dramatic reduction in delta-v expectation from the hypergol usage swung things in favor of storables. Once the lander is coming back up (or has aborted), it gets met by a tug in LLO to be returned to L2 for reuse.

Because of the goal of reaching LLO from an aborted landing, the downmass drives the architecture's propellant requirements. For option one using methane, it ends up being pretty happy at about 8 tons of downmass, using a full Centaur tug and about a 9-ton-capacity lander, but heavy (Armstrong-class ) modules need expendable landing stages, though only small ones--they only need to make a few hundred m/s. The other option to land more cargo is to design a lander using Pegasus uncrasher, which lets you land 32 tons at a time--and because you're designing for abort, you can also bring that all back. This enables larger crew landers at Armstrong, landing additional modules reusably, but also option two, where you have a ~25 ton hab, and you land at remote sites from L-2, spend three or four months there, then come back to EML-2.

Either involves a reusable new lunar lander, the only question is if it's capable of heavy cargo, and then what I think is a fun way of using it if it is.

Mars is a whole other story, of course.

In fact the module you refer to is that sausage-shaped one sticking out from the side of the three 'cans'. This image is obviously shortly after its deployment, before it got buried ;)

I wonder if the polar location might mean full burial isn't necessary, just a good build-up of regolith on the walls, or dropping it into a trench, since the sun will never be very high in the sky...
My rough plan was for astronauts to drape tubular bags filled with regolith over the top, kind of like this Bigelow concept but with a single, smaller module (which saves a bit of fiddling about on ladders).
Winchell Chung just happened to mention on his Atomic Rockets site that Deimos might have a lot of volatiles, including one hopes water--anyway any volatiles that contain hydrogen can be used, along with oxygen obtainable from many materials, as well as water, as a source for hydrogen-oxygen engine fuels. In this TL, it is asserted, rather plausibly one fears, that Phobos is pretty dry--but if Deimos is moister, then I'd suggest that the first destination of a manned Mars expedition would be that moon.
Cape Dread is a concept Winchell and I developed, using the most optimistic numbers for Phobos and Deimos volitiles--lots, and easily surface accesible. Eyes I deliberately went the other way--there's a fair amount, but all deeply buried as the surface layers desiccate. It was a deliberate choice. If there were volatiles easily accesible in the Martian moons, making some use of them as a natural fuel depot is attractive, but I'm a bit split--I worry about getting so involved in setting up infrastructure you never go anywhere balanced against not having enough infrastructure so the missions are too expensive to be practical.

In a way, the Artemis-Orion-Armstrong evolution reflects this tug-of-war for the Moon, and I think something similar would probably happen in an Eyes Mars mission--first going with minimal infrastructure, using just Gateway to L-2, and leaving, then building infrastructure at Mars orbit, then maybe on the surface, then expanding the infrastructure and exploration intensity in tandem.
 
All my thinking about surface to orbit and back Lunar shuttles involved just the one vehicle, meeting incoming craft in polar orbit. Involving uncrasher tugs sends me right back to the drawing board! Also I was not thinking much about staging through L-2, but of course you've established that there will be a depot station there, so that's where the traffic comes and goes I guess.

Obviously the uncrashers transform the question of the remote landers too. When I worked out that it might take just a few weeks for slow surface crawlers poking along at just 5 m/sec or so (powered by photoelectric cells, so they would be immobilized at night) I felt that we really don't need ballistic landings at distant points, except for rare emergency situations. With uncrashers zooming around though I guess I have to rethink that too.

Radiation is something I forgot to worry about for those poor SOBs in their Moon Winnebagos. A solar flare might indeed be very bad news for them since they are moving and have no ready-dug shelter handy, nor can they trundle around layers of regolith.:eek:

I usually worry a lot about radiation, more than the authors seem to think necessary, but it isn't solar storms which are relatively easy to shelter against--maybe the mobile explorer rovers can carry enough in light-element supplies--water and food (and stored wastes) in plastic--to tough out a sudden storm after all. No, it's those pesky GCRs I hate and fear. Just being on the Lunar surface cuts exposure in half. But only in half. I didn't think the regolith shelter at Armstrong was just a storm shelter--it is also the beginning of respite from the persistent GCRs; by spending stints of time in there everyone can stretch their allowable time at Armstrong . By building more of them until eventually all sleeping quarters and many workspaces are under rock, that time can be stretched out farther, perhaps to indefinitely.

So no, even if we need only a curtain wall against the Sun's misbehavior, the buried shelters remain a good idea; GCRs come from every direction.

I also seem to recall earlier discussion where I wondered if it would suffice to just build a solar storm plug shield and keep on the shady side--no, I was told, the storm comes from the Sun but it isn't rays from the solar disk--it is clouds of highly energetic material that puff past objects above the Earth's magnetospheric shielding and thus the hazard comes from all directions while one is in the plasma cloud. So I suppose that when solar flares occur, these streams of plasma go over the poles and the hazard "shines" down from above, even though the Sun itself is invisible behind a ridge. Presumably it is less exposure than in open space, cut in half and possibly more so (I'd think a wave of plasma would form some kind of shock wave hitting the Moon, with the accumulated charge of the first stuff to come in repelling more, so the sheaf streaming over the poles might be diverted up at an angle, giving some useful distance, so perhaps the Polar dose is just a third or a quarter that of open space. But there will be hazards coming straight down, I think.

Someone also mentioned putting satellites into polar orbits that would thus "always be in sunlight." A simple polar orbit of course would only have its plane flat to the Sun for a few days or hours in the year, then as the Earth-Moon system moves on in its yearly orbit of course half of it (almost) would be in shadow like any other orbit.

But it is possible to use some esoteric balancing of secondary perturbations to put satellites into near polar low Earth orbits that somehow are precessed to track the Sun, so they can for instance stay near the terminator line as it migrates through 360 degrees over the course of the year; these orbits are good for imaging landforms since the shadows are of maximum length. Is it possible to do something like that around the Moon?
 
More than a little sad to see this timeline finish, but what a way to close it out! The closing render by nixonshead completely drives home the point of what we may have missed out on in our own history. That panorama of operations at Armstrong Base evokes the many concept images for moon bases we saw and pined for over the years and truly showcases how far NASA was able to go in achieving their plans here.

Even with the cultural losses and shifts due to the Christmas Bombing attacks, we have a world where journeys to the moon are routine and we have a permanent human presence both in LEO and on the lunar surface. Mars may have to wait for now, but it's still enough to make one burst into tears after tabbing over to NASA's website and their mission statement of 'we're totes gonna do cool things down the line, just bear with us while we figure out how to make that actually happen'. Le sigh.

So while I am deeply grateful to e of pi, Workable Goblin, Brainbin and nixonshead for all of their, dare I say it, stellar work (I'll let myself out now), I also feel that I have to take a moment to shake my fist at each one of you. Curse you for giving us a peek into this world of yours, this wonderful, amazing place for space enthusiasts and curse you for the bouts of depression I feel when I remember that I don't live in it. Curse you for making me realize that I didn't spend my childhood with Space Station Freedom over my head, for not watching live footage from Artemis missions in my high school classrooms, and for not taking a break from my work day to check on the latest news from Armstrong. I love you for what you have accomplished here, and I hate you for taking the time and effort to make the world of ETS so tantalizingly close to our own.

In sum, it's been a heck of a ride and an absolute pleasure to read through. I'm going to miss it terribly, and greatly look forward to any future works you all put out.
 
I have to say, a shudder went through my heart as I had finally gotten towards the end of the topic and saw that the timeline was coming to an end. I sincerely hope there will be a sequel, and if not, at least something of the same caliber I can get caught up in :D

But anyway, I wanted to finally post because I had some technical questions about the Saturn Multibody. Specifically the H03 variant. Now I imagine that it follows similar launch procedures to the Delta IV Heavy of real life, but I wonder if it was any different, what with it being more powerful and man-rated.

I know that the boosters themselves had less propellant compared to the core, but was the core throttled down at some point during flight? How many seconds would pass between booster jettison and core jettison? Essentially I'm just curious as to how the thing was actually launched.

Reason why is because I've been recreating almost all of the American spacecraft, rockets, stations, etc in Kerbal Space Program (My Imgur, to see what I've been able to accomplish) and I'm a total sucker for getting the actual launch profiles as accurate as KSP will allow them to be.

And in that vein, I also want to say that I was highly impressed to find that the Saturn derived rockets you guys created do actually perform exactly as they're supposed to when correctly recreated in the game (Both in the base game and in RO, where its just a couple of skips and hops from full simulation)
 
I have to say, a shudder went through my heart as I had finally gotten towards the end of the topic and saw that the timeline was coming to an end. I sincerely hope there will be a sequel, and if not, at least something of the same caliber I can get caught up in :D
Well, WG and I both have our own irons in the fire, though a sequel seems pretty remote--we're pretty happy with the note we went out on. I'm assuming you've already seen recommendations of That Wacky Redhead and (for more spacey goodness from our fantastic artist Nixonshead) Kolyma's Shadow?

But anyway, I wanted to finally post because I had some technical questions about the Saturn Multibody. Specifically the H03 variant. Now I imagine that it follows similar launch procedures to the Delta IV Heavy of real life, but I wonder if it was any different, what with it being more powerful and man-rated.

I know that the boosters themselves had less propellant compared to the core, but was the core throttled down at some point during flight? How many seconds would pass between booster jettison and core jettison? Essentially I'm just curious as to how the thing was actually launched.
They're a lot like the Delta IV, with the core throttled down to 70% early in flight--I'm not sure precisely when, but my thought was that it'd be relatively soon, like once T/W passes 2. The boosters separate essentially at propellant depletion (though at the same time, obviously), and then the core throttles back up to 100% and burns to its own depletion--the relative timing of the staging events would be determined by when those are, and I've never run the numbers on precisely when those all are. :) Note that booster and core prop loads are identical--it's the structural mass of the booster that's lower, lacking reinforcement to support the upper stage makes them structurally more efficient.

Reason why is because I've been recreating almost all of the American spacecraft, rockets, stations, etc in Kerbal Space Program (My Imgur, to see what I've been able to accomplish) and I'm a total sucker for getting the actual launch profiles as accurate as KSP will allow them to be.

And in that vein, I also want to say that I was highly impressed to find that the Saturn derived rockets you guys created do actually perform exactly as they're supposed to when correctly recreated in the game (Both in the base game and in RO, where its just a couple of skips and hops from full simulation)
Hey, that's awesome! It's always cool to see the rockets from Eyes flying in KSP, and that my performance estimates are somewhere close to the mark. :)
 
Hate the double post, but I'm also impatient and don't want to wait until someone sees an edit :p

Anywhoo, another technical question, this time dealing with the Apollo Block III (and by extension IV). Mainly, how capable was it exactly? In KSP, the later Apollo blocks were the only bits I just threw together for looks rather than performance (as evidenced by using the LM Descent engine because it looked cooler, for instance), and now I want to change that.

However, after determining what should be the dV of the vehicles I'm sort of puzzled as to whether the numbers are truly correct or not. When it ranges from just over 400 dV in the Block III to just over 300 dV in the Block IV it seems sort of low, even for a vehicle intended for LEO operation. Though, then again, that may just be my ignorance as I don't know how much dV exactly is needed to deorbit from a LEO and I'm having trouble finding any information to indicate that number.

So for all I know its a great number with plenty of cushion. :confused:

Also, want to clarify the purpose of focusing on the dV is because my first attempt at getting the rockets right was a huge mess, as there were too many variables and KSP is too small (and not consistently scaled down) to make it easy to get the numbers right. So I decided to focus on TWR and dV instead and worked out much better. The two numbers are far easier to match in KSP than matching everything down to the last bolt.
 
However, after determining what should be the dV of the vehicles I'm sort of puzzled as to whether the numbers are truly correct or not. When it ranges from just over 400 dV in the Block III to just over 300 dV in the Block IV it seems sort of low, even for a vehicle intended for LEO operation. Though, then again, that may just be my ignorance as I don't know how much dV exactly is needed to deorbit from a LEO and I'm having trouble finding any information to indicate that number.
Shuttle had about 300 m/s, Soyuz has about 390 m/s. To go from a 500 km circular orbit to a 500x85 km entry orbit is about 120 m/s, so 300-400 m/s is a decent margin for phasing, docking, and de-orbit. (The logic on Block IV being a bit smaller in delta-v IIRC had to do with fixed tank sizes and that they're getting a lot better with rendezvous and launching to easier rendezvous, and can afford to make do with smaller margin if necessary.)
 
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