Eyes Turned Skywards

Great to see a pop culture update!

Any ideas on casting for those new roles?

The one thing TTL's developments have me pondering is Babylon 5. Obviously this is way after the POD and therefore unlikely to happen, but some kind of show set on the obvious descendant of today's space stations seems a likely bet for approval.

We've also got the original Battlestar happening at the same time. If anything, I'd think the contrast between a successful Star Trek and BSG's cheesiness might kill it off earlier. OTOH, if Star Trek develops more sustained enthusiasm of sci-fi TV, maybe it does better. Maybe the active competition with Star Trek will spur BSG to create a better product.

Do you perceive any change in Ridley Scott's trajectory i.e. Alien and Blade Runner?

How about an alternate Dune? Something tells me it could be a very different production ITTL.

Finally, given that there's no gap in manned spaceflight ITTL, perhaps we'll see a better-fated 2001 sequel.
 
Man, I go to bed and work and suddenly the thread goes incredibly active. For the record, we've now passed 300 responses and 20,000 views, and I'd like to thank everyone who's been checking in and posting for bearing with us as I sorted out the ELVRP II stuff. After a conference with Truth, I think we've got that figured out, and I'll be working on writing that up. Stay tuned for more as it happens. Anyway, on to all the latest comments:
So I'm curious to hear if the Eyes Turned Skywards authors have any plans to keep up the unmanned probe tempo that we lost in OTL in the late 70's and the early 80's.

They might. NASA may have more funds available to support them. Though I'm curious as to Voyagers 1 & 2. IOTL, Voyager 2 was deviated from it's original course, IIRC, in order to get another look at Saturn's largest moon, Titan. The new course prevented it from being able to perform a flyby of Pluto - which was still considered a planet at the time - forcing us to wait until New Horizons for that opportunity. What happens ITTL I look forward to with great interest.

My guess is that this time line would not affect the Voyager program, since it was approved so early in this time period. But I do think that Galileo, Magellan, and Hubble could have happened some years sooner, albeit perhaps in modified forms given the launch vehicle requirements. The same is likely true for other Mars missions that were never approved - it is hard to think we would have waited until 1992 to try to return to Mars, as we did in OTL.

All right, well, some of this has been covered, but it was a while ago so let's review what happened and when. Post #4 covered some unmanned, including the Voyagers. Since they're not having to deal with the enormous outlays of Shuttle, they manage to get four approved instead of just two--essentially two in the place of OTL's Voyager 1 and two in the place of OTL Voyager 2.Titan is, of course very interesting as OTL. However, here, they have two probes available where they had one OTL. One will get diverted to Titan as OTL, the other is left to cruise to Pluto. Pioneer-H's disposition has not really been decided, but it's probably something we should cover. No one mentioned it, but I thought I might. The start of the Hubble program got its own post. The actual mission will get more coverage along with other 80s unmanned stuff as the timeline moves forward into the decade.
 
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One possibility I'd live to see explored here is the proposed Mars Sample Return, projected for 1984, but never approved for funding - mainly because of Shuttle budget demands.
Mars 1984 was intended not as an MSR mission itself but as a precursor to a future one. The mission architecture, of course, is completely out the window without Shuttle and since it's so long after the PoD the entire study may be affected. You might be able to put together a similar stack using two Saturn 1Cs with a Centaur orbital stage instead of two Shuttles with the solid IUS. It may actually be more capable and it'd probably have a lower launch cost, but the program cost may cause more than a little sticker shock, especially in the cost-constrained late-70s. We'll see how it fits into what's on the board for the 80s already--unmanned is much more Truth's area than mine.
 
Any ideas on casting for those new roles?
Deck, Illia, and Xon? I'm imagining largely OTL, though this is more of a Brainbin question than one for me. It may be butterflied a bit by the changes in the start of the work on the show, or it may be relatively butterfly-proof. I just don't know enough about such stuff to say, which is why we asked Brainbin to help us out here with this guest post.

The one thing TTL's developments have me pondering is Babylon 5. Obviously this is way after the POD and therefore unlikely to happen, but some kind of show set on the obvious descendant of today's space stations seems a likely bet for approval.
There may be more done set of stations or bases than OTL. The British had some stuff of the like going back then--Moonbase 3, Space 1999, Star Cops--though of course that was set more on moon bases than stations, with the exception of the later one, Star Cops. The Lunar Society interest in lunar tube colonies supporting mining and SPSS construction at the Lagrange points may have some interesting effects shaping public mental images of space colonies. However, I can't really be sure.

...Maybe the active competition with Star Trek will spur BSG to create a better product.

Do you perceive any change in Ridley Scott's trajectory i.e. Alien and Blade Runner?

How about an alternate Dune? Something tells me it could be a very different production ITTL.

Finally, given that there's no gap in manned spaceflight ITTL, perhaps we'll see a better-fated 2001 sequel.
It's certainly an interesting thought, Again, these are all more Brainbin questions. Something that I was thinking about, though, was published sci-fi without Shuttle, but with stations and manned flight ongoing through the decade. I mean, what might stuff like Baxter's Voyage end up like ITTL? Obviously that's some distance in the future as well, but TV isn't the only thing that will see changes.
 
Man, I go to bed and work and suddenly the thread goes incredibly active. For the record, we've now passed 300 responses and 20,000 views, and I'd like to thank everyone who's been checking in and posting for bearing with us as I sorted out the ELVRP II stuff. After a conference with Truth, I think we've got that figured out, and I'll be working on writing that up. Stay tuned for more as it happens.

300+ Responses and over 20,000 views now. So congrats to you, Truth, and now, BrainBin! :D:D

I'm guessing that with the changes you made to TTL since you started, your buffer isn't as suited as it used to be since a lot of it needs rewriting owing to said changes.

Still looking forward to future updates with interest.
 
Hello e of pi,

Post #4 covered some unmanned, including the Voyagers.

Ah. My bad. I must have just skimmed that entry.

Since they're not having to deal with the enormous outlays of Shuttle, they manage to get four approved instead of just two--essentially two in the place of OTL's Voyager 1 and two in the place of OTL Voyager 2.

I see that now.

That's interesting. It's not impossible; the final Voyager funding decision was made in July 1972, which is after your POD. I am curious, however, since I'm not aware that NASA or JPL ever really considered a 4 probe program.

The original Voyager proposal was called Thermoelectric Outer Planet Spacecraft (TOPS), a real Cadillac of a program, with two ambitious probes on a clean sheet design that each had five redundant computers, a twelve foot parabolic antenna - all for about $750 million. But that was $750 million before any unexpected design problems, before any overruns, before any labor disputes. Confronted with a proposal that would likely cost a billion dollars or more - in the context of a NASA annual budget that was dropping down to under $3.4 billion - the Subcommittee on Space Science and Applications decided in December 1971 to kill it, and Committee chair Joe Karth told NASA, "no way." Literally.

So JPL went back to the drawing board and decided to soup up the old Ranger-Mariner design, replacing the five computer systems with a simple one, and came up with a price tag of $250 million - about a third of what TOPS originally had cost. And they reached that by dropping out Uranus and Neptune and Pluto. John Casani, of course, figured that the money could be wheedled out for more planets on the rest of the Grand Tour down the road . . . (and he was right, of course. But that was down the road).

Since the final Shuttle decision wasn't made until January, 1972 - and the FY 1973 budget only had very modest funding for Shuttle development - it hadn't really exercised a crowding out effect on unmanned missions. What I mean to say, in short, is that I don't see greater congressional enthusiasm necessary to pay for the $500 million plus that would be necessary for a four probe Voyager program, nor am I aware that JPL or NASA ever seriously considered it in the first place. Even in the earlier TOPS version, it was still just two probes. But I admit that I'm not an expert on the subject. Perhaps more probes were considered earlier in the process, and discarded.

I think that if Fletcher and Pickering really thought there was more money on the table for a more ambitious TOPS/Voyager, they would have tried to incorporate more of the ambitious elements of the original TOPS design into the existing two probe plan, rather than adding on additional probes. But perhaps my reading of that decision process is not adequately informed.

An extra couple of probes would have been a great boon, of course, given the very rare opportunity of the Grand Tour. They couldn't have told us anything more about Titan, but they could have followed up other opportunities. To this day,the Voyager program is some of the very best science money the federal government has ever spent, given what the return has been (and still is for the remaining 13 years of likely life the probes have left).

Mars 1984 was intended not as an MSR mission itself but as a precursor to a future one. The mission architecture, of course, is completely out the window without Shuttle and since it's so long after the PoD the entire study may be affected.

I assumed as much. But I figure there's a significantly greater chance that some less ambitious Mars probe - something that could be fit into an existing ELV - would be approved to follow up the Viking success.

I'll look forward to seeing what you develop on that front. My niggles here notwithstanding, I tip my hat to you all for a most interesting and most enjoyable timeline - a timeline both very realistic, and very preferable to the path we actually took.
 
I'll look forward to seeing what you develop on that front. My niggles here notwithstanding, I tip my hat to you all for a most interesting and most enjoyable timeline - a timeline both very realistic, and very preferable to the path we actually took.

I know. That's the thing with STS. It essentially trapped us in LEO for a very long time, primarily due to it's limited capabilities and very high operating costs. Things we only really know with hindsight.


Moonraker, at any rate, is right out the window...

In it's OTL form, definately - not a bad thing, IMHO.
 
While I'm still here on this delightful thread - let no one think I am not enjoying the heck out of it - I can't help but think of a very similar alternate history thought experiment trundled out by a very notable figure - NASA administrator Michael Griffin.

Writing in Aviation Week in 2007, Griffin pondered a world in which the Shuttle decision had been rejected in favor of a continued Saturn/Apollo architecture:

We must treat our space systems as we have always treated our airplanes. Successful aircraft designs, from general aviation airplanes to the highest-performance military fighters, are evolved, upgraded, and used for decades. Just as with DC-3s, B-52s, and many other aircraft, we need to understand that Orion and Ares will be flown by the grandkids of the first astronauts who take them into space. We simply cannot again afford the strategic distraction, the wasted money, the squandered talent, and the lost time of building a new human spaceflight system, and then using it for only sixteen missions.

Once again, a look at the budgetary history provides a sobering lesson for the future, a sobering view of “what might have been.” Let’s recycle to the early 1970s, a time of budgetary starvation for NASA, a time when we did not yet have the Space Shuttle, but did still have the Apollo systems – the Saturn I-B and Saturn V, the Apollo command/service modules (CSM), the lunar lander, and the Skylab system. All of these things were in existence in 1973, having been created in that seminal first 15 years of our agency’s history.

Make no mistake; these systems were far from perfect. They were expensive to develop and expensive to operate. Our parents and grandparents, metaphorically speaking, did not really know quite what they were doing when they set out to accept President Kennedy’s challenge to go to the Moon. They learned as they went along. But what they eventually built worked, and worked well. And it could have kept working at a price we could afford.

Let’s look at some recurring costs in dollars then and now. All costs include both hardware and mission operations, and are at the high end of the range of possibilities, because they take no advantage of stable rates of production. Fiscal 2000 costs are approximate, obtained by inflating programs in the aggregate, rather than tracking and inflating separate expenditures of real-year dollars.

Code:
Element                  Real-Year $ M    FY 2000 $ M
Apollo CSM                50                     160
Apollo Lunar Module       120                    400
Apollo Lunar Mission      720                   2400
Saturn I-B                35                     120
Saturn V                  325                   1100
Skylab Cluster            275                    925

Let’s assume that we had kept flying with the systems we had at the time, that we had continued to execute two manned Apollo lunar missions every year, as was done in 1971-72. This would have cost about $4.8 billion annually in Fiscal 2000 dollars.

Further, let us assume that we had established a continuing program of space station activities in Earth orbit, built on the Apollo CSM, Saturn I-B, and Skylab systems. Four crew rotation launches per year, plus a new Skylab cluster every five years to augment or replace existing modules, would have cost about $1.5 billion/year. This entire program of six manned flights per year, two of them to the Moon, would have cost about $6.3 billion annually in Fiscal 2000 dollars. The average annual NASA budget in the 15 difficult years from 1974-88 was $10.5 billion; with 60% of it allocated to human spaceflight, there would have been sufficient funding to continue a stable program of lunar exploration as well as the development of Earth orbital infrastructure. I suggest that this would have been a better strategic alternative than the choices that were in fact made, almost 40 years ago.

After a time, as NASA budgets once again improved, we would have begun to concentrate our lunar activity around an outpost, and we would have used cargo missions to emplace the outpost equipment. A modified Apollo Lunar Module descent stage, with extra fuel and cargo replacing the ascent stage, could have been used for the purpose. The Saturn V could deliver two such vehicles with a single launch. So, over time, we could have built up an early lunar outpost, or smaller ones at different places of interest. By the present day, using what we had with minimal modifications – and I will remind us all that the Soyuz systems of that era are still flying – we would have a vast store of experience and a significant amount of lunar infrastructure. When the civil space budget eventually improved, as it did, we would have been well positioned to begin development of a Mars mission. And in the meantime, without doubt, we would have continued to modify, refine, and incrementally improve the old Apollo designs, to the point where they would have provided greatly enhanced effectiveness by the present day.

If we had done all this, we would be on Mars today, not writing about it as a subject for “the next 50 years.” We would have decades of experience operating long-duration space systems in Earth orbit, and similar decades of experience in exploring and learning to utilize the Moon. This essay on “the next 50 years” would be quite different than the one I am offering here. I think most of us will agree that it would have been a better one.

Now, nothing is as easy as planning in hindsight, nor as permanent as a lost opportunity. I offer the “alternative history” above not to throw stones at policymakers long departed from the scene, but to inform future decisions. If we ignore these lessons, we will surely repeat them.

Certainly it's a "what if" that's been engaging a lot of people in the space community for some time now.

I might disagree with Griffin on a few points, as would our authors e of pi and truth - Griffin greatly underestimated costs of Constellation/Ares and too readily overlooked design options that would have used more available Shuttle architecture, and his notion that we could have simply kept up lunar exploration seems less optimal now, and it seems unlikely we'd be on Mars now, even so - but his basic point is sound. Far more could have been done with the money NASA obtained had it chosen a different path - the path that this thread has outlined.

And if you put off going back to the Moon for a couple of decades, think of how much more can be accomplished in low earth orbit in the 70's and 80's.
 
Damn you Brainbin. Damn you to hell!

A lovely interlude post for a really fun timeline that (I shame myself) I hadn't commented on before.
 
Any ideas on casting for those new roles?
Why, Stephen Collins, Persis Khambatta, and David Gautreaux, of course :D Granted, it's actually quite unlikely that casting would line up in quite that same way ITTL, but unfortunately, we haven't been given any clues as to alternative candidates for the roles IOTL.

Expat said:
We've also got the original Battlestar happening at the same time. If anything, I'd think the contrast between a successful Star Trek and BSG's cheesiness might kill it off earlier. OTOH, if Star Trek develops more sustained enthusiasm of sci-fi TV, maybe it does better. Maybe the active competition with Star Trek will spur BSG to create a better product.
The original Battlestar Galactica can't have a much shorter run than it did IOTL - unless you count 1980 as the same show. On the whole, I would lean toward the former option: viewers have the real Star Trek on the air, so why settle for a pale imitation of both it and Star Wars? Given the exorbitant prices, ABC would be happy to cancel it in a jiffy (I alluded within the update that NBC was willing to pay for Star Trek because they were in dire straits, but ABC was very successful in this era, and that's why they were willing to cancel Battlestar Galactica with impunity IOTL). The show literally cannot maintain that level of quality and remain on the air.

Expat said:
Do you perceive any change in Ridley Scott's trajectory i.e. Alien and Blade Runner?
Not particularly. Blade Runner's star will probably shine brighter in comparison to OTL, given the lack of competition from a certain other highly-acclaimed and beloved science-fiction film in 1982 ITTL.

Expat said:
How about an alternate Dune? Something tells me it could be a very different production ITTL.
I don't know enough about the Duniverse to dare venture a guess - but as long as Lynch doesn't direct, that's a safe bet.

Expat said:
Finally, given that there's no gap in manned spaceflight ITTL, perhaps we'll see a better-fated 2001 sequel.
I doubt Kubrick that would direct such a film, though, so don't get your hopes up ;)

300+ Responses and over 20,000 views now. So congrats to you, Truth, and now, BrainBin! :D:D
Thank you very much, although I'm not really sure I deserve to be lumped in with the two primary authors, who are doing a terrific job with material that's totally out of my league. But this collaboration has been a real pleasure for me.

Damn you Brainbin. Damn you to hell!
I'm afraid that's an entirely different franchise, Electric Monk :p

Electric Monk said:
A lovely interlude post for a really fun timeline that (I shame myself) I hadn't commented on before.
Thank you very much. I did my best to raise my game, in hopes of maintaining the high standards already in place.
 
While I'm still here on this delightful thread - let no one think I am not enjoying the heck out of it - I can't help but think of a very similar alternate history thought experiment trundled out by a very notable figure - NASA administrator Michael Griffin.
I think it's better for all of us if we don't talk too much about Michael Griffin. Suffice it to say that I think he let his nostalgia for Apollo blind him to engineering realities, and that in the hope of re-creating a chance that was lost 40 years prior, he managed to completely squander the chances that were really present in the original pre-Griffin VSE.

It's worth noting something about the choice of PoDs: in writing Eyes Turned Skyward, Truth and I deliberately picked one where it was too late to save Saturn V or further lunar flights of the main Apollo program. In that sense, this is a timeline about what can happen when you sieze the potential present in what looks like total failure: lacking Saturn V and with the "next big thing" of Shuttle zeroed out and shut down, NASA here picks itself up, accepts the assets it has and by putting them together in a manageable scope on the budget it actually has, it has ended up in a much better--though different-- place than OTL. Mike Griffin dreams of the full-on Apollo program continuing forever, and in trying to achieve what would have been a victory in a past era (and I think keeping Saturn V is definitely interesting and worthy of the coverage others have and will continue to give it) in the modern era, he squandered the potential of assets like the ELVs, a directly-Shuttle-derived HLV of sub-Saturn V-scale, and the tremendous experience and talent of the Shuttle workforce.

In many ways, I think that the moment we are at in spaceflight is one that will be looked on as having just as much of a nexus of possibility as the end of Apollo, and it's one reason I'm interested in seeing more focus on that other nexus--not because we need to learn what to do by figuring out better options that could have been done then, but because of what there is to learn about taking full advantage of the current opportunities.
 
Hello e of pi,

As I hinted in my post, I'm not really a Michael Griffin fan, either. And you've given the reasons why.

a directly-Shuttle-derived HLV of sub-Saturn V-scale

That sounds like Direct, perchance? :)

Sadly, that ship has probably sailed now, too. I fear that SLS will just turn into another NASA white elephant. They waited too long.

No, I thought his essay was interesting only because it was a brief stab at this same road not traveled - infused, unfortunately, with his infamous lack of realism of practicalities and politics. Even with lunar exploration suspended, there's still room for a robust LEO program through the 70's and 80's - and a permanent (or nearly so) manned station over two decades before the U.S. actually managed it (and only then with considerable international involvement).

After my earlier venture into an extended Apollo, I came to agree with your assessment that turning to space stations with the Apollo/Saturn architecture was the best policy move - affordable and much less risky. A return to the Moon would be/would have been desirable at some point of course, but better to wait for the technology to mature, and budgets to rise again.
 
a directly-Shuttle-derived HLV of sub-Saturn V-scale

That sounds like Direct, perchance? :)

Sadly, that ship has probably sailed now, too. I fear that SLS will just turn into another NASA white elephant. They waited too long.

IMO, a side-mount Shuttle Z or even the Zubrin-Baker Ares would have made more sense than what the Ares I/V program became IOTL. Once you go widening the core stage and stretching the SRBs, it's, for all practical purposes, new hardware, Shuttle-derived in name and colour-scheme only. And what was up with resurrecting the J-2 design, anyway? It was out of production for decades. Why not cluster a lot of RL-10s? The Shuttle-C and -Z designs at least would have utilized existing LC-39 infrastructure and the exact same ET, and maybe even found a way to reuse SSMEs. Ares...was just all the difficulties of operating Shuttle launch architecture, and then some. SLS, while it's a somewhat more sane design, still seems flawed. (Not to derail the thread further, but is there any reason the SSET and now SLS aren't using a common bulkhead in their Core Stage? It just seems like a small change that could do a lot of good)

Anyway, this discussion of Heavy-Lift leads me to ask, is there any chance NASA will try to cluster the Saturn IC first stages together to create something like the EELV and Falcon Heavy designs? It would seem like a cheaper way of getting a lot of lift capacity than redesigning an S-IC replacement. With the performance described so far, I would think that this hypothetical Saturn IC Heavy could achieve at least 80 metric tons to LEO...
 
Hello Eagle,

Once you go widening the core stage and stretching the SRBs, it's, for all practical purposes, new hardware, Shuttle-derived in name and colour-scheme only.

No kidding.
 
Anyway, this discussion of Heavy-Lift leads me to ask, is there any chance NASA will try to cluster the Saturn IC first stages together to create something like the EELV and Falcon Heavy designs? It would seem like a cheaper way of getting a lot of lift capacity than redesigning an S-IC replacement. With the performance described so far, I would think that this hypothetical Saturn IC Heavy could achieve at least 80 metric tons to LEO...

has anyone done any artwork of the Saturn IC yet?


Saturn IC Heavy, not that's a pic i would like to see!:cool:


~forgive me if i missed it!~
 
a directly-Shuttle-derived HLV of sub-Saturn V-scale

That sounds like Direct, perchance? :)
...maybe. :) I think it was an interesting proposal, for sure. However, as you say:

Sadly, that ship has probably sailed now, too. I fear that SLS will just turn into another NASA white elephant. They waited too long.
Yeah. The situation now is definitely different than it was when Griffin came into the position, and that means that even the more direct SLS (which would have been an improvement as an alt-Ares rocket) is no longer the right choice, especially when you look at other launchers on the drawing boards.
 
Anyway, this discussion of Heavy-Lift leads me to ask, is there any chance NASA will try to cluster the Saturn IC first stages together to create something like the EELV and Falcon Heavy designs? It would seem like a cheaper way of getting a lot of lift capacity than redesigning an S-IC replacement. With the performance described so far, I would think that this hypothetical Saturn IC Heavy could achieve at least 80 metric tons to LEO...
It's certainly interesting to think about, isn't it?
has anyone done any artwork of the Saturn IC yet?
Nope. It's basically created specifically for this TL, largely because I love the potential of the F1 too much to let it die without some fight, and it made some sense to me that as long as they were consolidating to a monolithic tank design Boeing might also switch to a roughly equivalent single engine they already have more experience with. Of the Saturn Multibody, there exists even less artwork because as of yet it hasn't even been completely designed for this TL.

Saturn IC Heavy, not that's a pic i would like to see!:cool:
It's a pic I'd love to see too. Maybe someday we both can, but for now the answer is no, as it is for most of the hardware in this TL.
 
Once you go widening the core stage and stretching the SRBs, it's, for all practical purposes, new hardware, Shuttle-derived in name and colour-scheme only.

Which was exactly the failing of the Ares I/V programme. A combination of a series of predetermined decisions, and performance shortfalls, resulted in the once Shuttle-Derived LVs mutating into what they became. Essentially all-new designs requiring alll the additional work and testing.


And what was up with resurrecting the J-2 design, anyway? It was out of production for decades. Why not cluster a lot of RL-10s?

When worked began on the J-2X, they very quickly had to redesign the whole thing to get both the Isp and vacumn thrust up, and it turned into an essentially all-new design that had little to nothing to do with the J-2 engines, IIRC.
 

Archibald

Banned
Certainly it's a "what if" that's been engaging a lot of people in the space community for some time now.

Far more could have been done with the money NASA obtained had it chosen a different path - the path that this thread has outlined.

And if you put off going back to the Moon for a couple of decades, think of how much more can be accomplished in low earth orbit in the 70's and 80's.

After my earlier venture into an extended Apollo, I came to agree with your assessment that turning to space stations with the Apollo/Saturn architecture was the best policy move - affordable and much less risky. A return to the Moon would be/would have been desirable at some point of course, but better to wait for the technology to mature, and budgets to rise again.

You know, I reached the exact same conclusions. My space ATL motto is: NASA build capabilities in Low Earth Orbit for three decades - 1971 to 2001. After what these capabilities are exploited into a new manned planetary program.

And then, here's another atempt at a "1980 NASA Space station" timeline. http://alternatehistoryofthespaceage.blogspot.com/2012/01/naming-33-foot-station.html

I've toyed with various space ATLs, all based on 1969 - 71 PODs.
Mars has been done by Stephen Baxter (don't dare to revisit that one !); for the Moon, watch my signature; and even a Shuttle / Skylab B scenario might be of interest.
What is sure is that the shuttle is very much a train wreck: once Nixon approves it past January 5, 1972, THERE'S NO WAY TO STOP THE THING.
Not even STS-51L can stop the wreck: NASA honestly couldn't throw four orbiters, lots of promises, and $7 billion of investment to the dustbin. Not after only 5 years of operations.

cheers !
 
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