Extend the Fourth Chinese Domination of Vietnam

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Chinese_domination_of_Vietnam

In OTL, the fourth Chinese domination of Vietnam ended in the 1420s during the Ming dynasty

In OTL, there would not be another Chinese domination of Vietnam, just tributary relations

What if instead, the Ming held Vietnam it for its dynastic life?.

What could enable this to happen, and what would be the consequences post-Mingdynasty? If there is a Manchu conquest, are they likely to inherit Vietnam?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Ming_Domination_of_Vietnam.jpg
Might it help the Chinese keep their hold on Vietnam if they also conquered the Lao Kingdoms just to the west of Vietnam and South of Yunnan? While the prize would be control over a not very developed jungle, it might keep more Chinese troops in proximity to Vietnam, prepared to outflank and counterattack the Le Loi rebels?
 
Ming withdrew from Vietnam because the expedition was too costly. If China discovered a valuable resource that was only produced in Vietnam, it would stay in Vietnam. The income, would paid for the expedition.

Manchu would conquer Vietnam as well. There is no way for Manchu to allow Ming dynasty to exist on its southern boarder.
 
I don't have my exact sources with me but it seems like there was a relatively calm period after the last of the Tran got killed (1410? Can't remember)

You had a period of forced sinicization but no record of mass rebellion. As far as I remember there was a change in administration iin 1416 and the tightened hhe screw on the people. Soon after you have the rise of Lé Loi.

So if the screw wasn't tightened you probably wouldn't have Lé Loi.

An alternative is at the start of Lé Loi's insurrection. The governor of Nghé And in the south defected oo him. That gave him men but also better access to the province which is very easily defensible with lots of rivers, mountains and valleys.

It would mean it would get fully crushed or never gain critical mass
 
Ming withdrew from Vietnam because the expedition was too costly. If China discovered a valuable resource that was only produced in Vietnam, it would stay in Vietnam. The income, would paid for the expedition.

Manchu would conquer Vietnam as well. There is no way for Manchu to allow Ming dynasty to exist on its southern boarder.
Sorry for the double post!

China withdrew because it was getting its ass kicked. The occupation wasn't too costly, but the war really was.

After ten years and with the new rise of steppe nomads, they gave up
 
Sorry for the double post!

China withdrew because it was getting its ass kicked. The occupation wasn't too costly, but the war really was.

After ten years and with the new rise of steppe nomads, they gave up
Would throwing more cash at Vietnamese unrest help? If Zheng He didn't go on his expeditions, a lot of this cash could be redirected to quell Vietnam.
 
Even if the Ming stay, I have a feeling that the upheavals that led to the fall of the Ming would see the Vietnamese rise up and gain their freedom back. Now, whether the Manchus would invade or simply let the restive southern province be after their conquest is a whole other question...
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Even if the Ming stay, I have a feeling that the upheavals that led to the fall of the Ming would see the Vietnamese rise up and gain their freedom back. Now, whether the Manchus would invade or simply let the restive southern province be after their conquest is a whole other question...

I'd think if the Viets are unable are unable to stop any Ming refugees or hand over their heads on platters to the Manchus, the Manchus would conquer them too.

Of course, as discussed in another thread, if the Manchu took over Vietnam they would probably champion the separateness of its culture from China, like they did for the Tibetans, Muslims and Mongols. Which would be a contrast from the probable Sinification/assimilation bias on the part of a Ming or any ethnic Han dynasty.
 
Even if the Ming stay, I have a feeling that the upheavals that led to the fall of the Ming would see the Vietnamese rise up and gain their freedom back. Now, whether the Manchus would invade or simply let the restive southern province be after their conquest is a whole other question...
If the Ming sank enough money into Vietnam, they could possibly scinicize it like Yunnan.
 
If the Ming sank enough money into Vietnam, they could possibly scinicize it like Yunnan.
The problem is that it's aard to do cultural work when you're completely cut out in isolated strongholds.
It was not a matter of money, China was bleeding men! Plus, it made them look very bad. How could Yong Le reassert his position as most powerful man on earth if he gets bested in the field by Vietnam, a tiny country at its borders?
 
The problem is that it's aard to do cultural work when you're completely cut out in isolated strongholds.
It was not a matter of money, China was bleeding men! Plus, it made them look very bad. How could Yong Le reassert his position as most powerful man on earth if he gets bested in the field by Vietnam, a tiny country at its borders?
I wouldn't say that China has ever cared about bleeding men. Yet another example of the Ming being complete asshats I think.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
According to some maps I've seen of Kubhlai Khan's Empire, he held the northern half of Burma. It would have been interesting if the Ming had inherited it and the territory remained united with China in perpetuity. If you look at the historical maps of China, it appears the Ming did a good job inheriting most of the Chinese southwest (Yunnan) which actually had been independent of China (as Nanzhao) for 500 years before the Mongol conquest.
 
According to some maps I've seen of Kubhlai Khan's Empire, he held the northern half of Burma. It would have been interesting if the Ming had inherited it and the territory remained united with China in perpetuity. If you look at the historical maps of China, it appears the Ming did a good job inheriting most of the Chinese southwest (Yunnan) which actually had been independent of China (as Nanzhao) for 500 years before the Mongol conquest.
Not sure how true it is,but I have read claims on the internet that during Yongle's rebellion against his nephew,the Burmese conquered a number of tribes previously loyal to Ming in the region.

A possible way to extend the occupation might be Yongle's other son getting the throne instead.Yongle's other son was a military man just like his father and was more favored by Yongle than his older brother.But of course,there's the chance that the Ming Dynasty might also collapse under this particular son,since he was a fairly rash man with ridiculous ambitions,given how he latter tried to repeat his father's success by rebelling against his own nephew.
 
Last edited:
Top