Expressions of interest/sources for a TL centred on a Gothic Steppe Empire

Hi AHers,

Although I spend a lot of time on both the After 1900 and Before 1900 sections of the board, I generally contribute to the After 1900 section because that is where my expertise lies.

A major part of working on that has been the TL in my sig, 'Stars and Sickles' which is based on an alternate Cold War. I've been working on it for about a year (on-and-off, because real life) and I'm still nowhere near finishing it. Although I've got some great ideas for it, and definitely want to complete it, a lack of inspiration recently has led me to neglect it somewhat. Whilst I want to give it the attention it deserves, I've decided not to force it, instead I would rather let it grow naturally than let it become a chore.

As a means of letting off steam somewhat, I was thinking of creating a TL focusing (not exclusively, of course) on a surviving Gothic Steppe Empire. I figured it would be really cool to look at how such a culture would develop. I'm not an expert on the Goths, but I have a strongly budding interest and a foundational knowledge of them. Unfortunately, however, a lot of writings on the Goths focus on their later interactions with the Romans rather than on the Goths themselves.

Anyways here is a few things I wanted to throw out there and get any readers' comments on:

-Gothic warfare: I'm definitely not an expert on warfare in this period, and from what little I've read on it, I've been hearing that the Goths liked to fight in the style imitated from the Alans, namely utilising the shock power of armoured lancers. The Huns managed to effectively counteract this with horse archers. Why did the Goths not use horse archery to the same effect? Was there some good reason for it, or what?

-Gothic government/customary(?) law: how did the Goths operate? Am I right in that they had two kings, or was that only after the Ostrogoths and Visigoths became divided?

-Other peoples: Aside from the Alans, what other peoples did the Goths conquer/absorb? What was their relationship with neighbouring groups, such as the Balts or Slavs?

-Would the Goths still likely adopt Christianity if they remained a power on the steppe? Would their Christianity still be distinctly Gothic? I'm leaning towards yes, because of their unique values and because greater independence from Rome would mean less Roman influence would be accepted in their religion.

-Eastern Germanic: I'm thinking that the Goths would be the core of an 'East Germanic' cultural sphere (kinda like how the Russians have historically been the core of the 'East Slavic' cultures) that would be distinct from Western Germanics, who themselves would have their differences, but be less divergent than the Goths.

-Trade: Would the Goths be in a good position to benefit off of the amber route? would they trade more with the Eastern Roman Empire than the West? What would the affect of their presence to the East be on the development of Germania proper?

Ideas (not necessarily decided on):

-Could the Goths defeat the Huns? Or is it easier to divert them to China, Manchuria, Tocharia or Persia?

-How would the Romans meddle in Gothic affairs, if they would at all?

-How would the other Germanic tribes interact with the Goths? Tributaries? Alliance seekers? Wary? Would a strong Gothic Empire nearby lead more Germans to take their chances invading the provinces of the WRE?

-Would 'cut-scenes' set in the alt-universe's 2014 be a good idea?

-Any ideas about the other major civilisations would be appreciated (no Byzantine wank, plz).
 
I'm interested!

I don't really know anything about the Goths, unfortunately. That said, if your POD is Late Roman Empire-era, and you want to go all the way to present-day tech level (which could be millennia before or after 2014!), then consider how different modern-day Italian culture is from that of the Roman Empire. A lot of cultural quirks would get transformed beyond recognition over the millennia, and then leveled during industrialization - assuming industrialization ever reached the Gothic Empire!
 
Not necessarily just modern Italian culture, but also modern Spanish culture as well...Heck, you can also look at the Principality of Theodoro, which had a sizeable number of Crimean Gothic speakers and peoples there (before it was ultimately incorporated into the Ottoman Empire and Crimean Khanate.)

Other than the Goths, the only other major civs I know of around this time period besides the two halves of the whole Roman Empire is really the Franks and the Vandals (and to a lesser extent, the Saxons and the Suebi).
 
I'm interested!

I don't really know anything about the Goths, unfortunately. That said, if your POD is Late Roman Empire-era, and you want to go all the way to present-day tech level (which could be millennia before or after 2014!), then consider how different modern-day Italian culture is from that of the Roman Empire. A lot of cultural quirks would get transformed beyond recognition over the millennia, and then leveled during industrialization - assuming industrialization ever reached the Gothic Empire!

I'm not ambitious (or foolhardy!) enough to attempt a TL that goes from the Late Roman period to the present day in one continuous arc, and I think that it would be extraordinarily difficult to do anyway. Nevertheless, I was thinking of having a more narrative story (focused around characters) in a 21st Century Gothic setting, interspersed with a more textbook style story of the rise of the Gothic Empire [placeholder name].

But you're definitely right, when developing that world, I will have to look at the differences (and sometimes lack of differences) to get an idea of how a 21st Century Gothia would look.
 
Not necessarily just modern Italian culture, but also modern Spanish culture as well...Heck, you can also look at the Principality of Theodoro, which had a sizeable number of Crimean Gothic speakers and peoples there (before it was ultimately incorporated into the Ottoman Empire and Crimean Khanate.)

Other than the Goths, the only other major civs I know of around this time period besides the two halves of the whole Roman Empire is really the Franks and the Vandals (and to a lesser extent, the Saxons and the Suebi).

I have had a look at the Principality of Theodoro, and aside from being fascinating, I guess it also has value in developing what the Goths would somewhat look like in warmer climes like the Black Sea Coast, as opposed to places like the Baltic approaches or the steppe itself.

I'm aware that a variety of Germanic peoples were around (Lombards, Marcomanni, Alemanni, Franks, Saxons, Vandals etc.). It seems like the Suebi were at this time merely a collective term for a number of different groups (Chatii, Cherusci etc.).

I know this is smack-bang in the middle of the Sassanid Empire's reign in Persia, but I'd really appreciate if anyone had information on Central Asia during this period. China seems to have been under the Eastern Jin at the TL's likely POD (late 300s), but I know literally nothing about Chinese history at this time.
 
Unfortunately, however, a lot of writings on the Goths focus on their later interactions with the Romans rather than on the Goths themselves.

That's because the evidence is just so flimsy for any of the non-Roman peoples prior to their entry into the Roman world. Roman writers weren't particularly interested, and the "barbarians" themselves didn't have a literary culture. It's very difficult to say much for sure about the Goths before the fourth and fifth centuries.
 
This could lead to a seriously powerful united pan-German state down the road!

I was sorta thinking that there wouldn't be a pan-Germanic state (just like there was never any serious attempts to forge a pan-Latin state after the fall of the Roman Empire). The differences between Eastern Germanics and Western Germanics would be quite significant. I feel like using the Goths as some kind of Lebensraum analogue isn't in very good taste. I'm personally not a big fan of 'hyperpower' TLs.
 
So having done quite a bit of research over the past few days on the Goths, Sassanid Persia, and China in the mid-to-late 300s, I've decided that I probably will embark on the project, despite still needing to do a fair amount of research on a number of areas.

That being said, nothing is yet set in stone and I would love to hear different suggestions for things in the TL. Hopefully those suggestions will serve to inspire me with some good ideas! :)

To hint at some of the ideas I already have:

-A Gothic steppe empire (obviously) between the Danube and the Volga-Don region.
-A more successful Former Qin under the leadership of Fu Jian (the later).
-A diversion of the Huns into somewhere other than Eastern Europe (I'm keeping it hush as to where ;) ).

Things that aren't 100% decided on:

-The exact fate of the Roman Empire (who gets what etc.).
-consolidation (or not) of Central Asia.
-India. Basically everything about it.

Also, if anyone's area of expertise is during this time period (or even just one of the areas in this time period), please let me know so I can take advantage of you (your knowledge, that is).
 
I'd strongly suggest you take a read of Peter Heather's The Fall of the Roman Empire, which discusses the fourth century in general, and the Goths in particular, in quite some detail: it's also very well written so easily readable and accessible.
 
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