Exocet - the Effects of a different Falklands

Damn - that was not who I expected the Dem candidate to be!

I’m guessing he probably came somewhat close in PA and FL which are left as grand “what-ifs?” to Democrats?
 
Damn - that was not who I expected the Dem candidate to be!

I’m guessing he probably came somewhat close in PA and FL which are left as grand “what-ifs?” to Democrats?
It was very, very close. Both states had a result for Thompson that were within a percentage point of each other. I'd say Florida would be something on the lines of 47-46 and Pennsylvania's a bit closer, something like 49.4-48.8 to Thompson. So, just outside the technical recount too. It's funny you mention that as in my first draft I had Cisneros losing Michigan and winning Florida, but I thought based on voter bases and historic voting patterns and whatnot, there'd be no way that would occur.

Anyway, its not all downside for Cisneros as he becomes the odds-on favourite to be the Democratic nominee again in 2000 and based on how close the election was, he's got a good chance of defying history.
 
Everything coming up roses for Thompson. Let me guess - the GOP gained seats in at least one house of congress too right? He'll have an even freer hand to do whatever he wants now now that he's been vindicated by victory.

To quote the great Dominic Torreto: "Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning."
 
It was very, very close. Both states had a result for Thompson that were within a percentage point of each other. I'd say Florida would be something on the lines of 47-46 and Pennsylvania's a bit closer, something like 49.4-48.8 to Thompson. So, just outside the technical recount too. It's funny you mention that as in my first draft I had Cisneros losing Michigan and winning Florida, but I thought based on voter bases and historic voting patterns and whatnot, there'd be no way that would occur.

Anyway, its not all downside for Cisneros as he becomes the odds-on favourite to be the Democratic nominee again in 2000 and based on how close the election was, he's got a good chance of defying history.

Who are the incumbents governors of Florida and Pennsylvania ittl?

If Jeb! had won in ittl's 1994 election, I could see some see suspicious activities, then again without Poppy Bush in the White House, maybe the family isn't prominent enough.
 
Everything coming up roses for Thompson. Let me guess - the GOP gained seats in at least one house of congress too right? He'll have an even freer hand to do whatever he wants now now that he's been vindicated by victory.

To quote the great Dominic Torreto: "Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning."
Actually the election, congressionally, is a lot like 2000, where Democrats make strides whilst their national candidate is locked in a tight race. The House has a slim majority for the GOP, similar to 2000, and Republicans suffer losses in the Senate because of a more favourable map because of the 1990 Midterms, a far better result for Democrats than OTL 1996.

Who are the incumbents governors of Florida and Pennsylvania ittl?

If Jeb! had won in ittl's 1994 election, I could see some see suspicious activities, then again without Poppy Bush in the White House, maybe the family isn't prominent enough.
Pennsylvania’s Governor is Catherine Baker Knoll and whilst Florida’s Governor is Buddy Mackay as OTL, there’s no Jeb! in ‘94 running against him.

I’d agree with you that without Pappy Bush in the White House, the family are a lot less prominent.
 
Actually the election, congressionally, is a lot like 2000, where Democrats make strides whilst their national candidate is locked in a tight race. The House has a slim majority for the GOP, similar to 2000, and Republicans suffer losses in the Senate because of a more favourable map because of the 1990 Midterms, a far better result for Democrats than OTL 1996.
I obviously can't comment on the 2000 Congressional election ITTL if that's what you are referring to. If you are referring to the 2000 Congressional election OTL...the Democrats gained a total of five seats - one in the HoR, four in the Senate. If 1996 ITTL mirrors 2000 OTL then once again Thompson wins - one seat changing hands in the HoR is so insignificant as to be irrelevant.

I'm still sitting here waiting here for this oft-mentioned "intense counterreaction" to anything Thompson has done while being President. Sitting here I see Thompson's racist, highly negative campaign strategy completely and totally vindicated. The guy won re-election. He's going to get at least six years of a full GOP trifecta. He'll have a completely free hand to re-shape both domestic and international policy as he and his advisors see fit. The guy's living the charmed life politically. It may change but that's the lay of the land on Inaguration Day 1997.
 
Second Korean War
A.N. Sorry for the delay, but this is the biggest update of the TL yet, so hopefully that counts for something. Updates might be a bit spotty, got a lot going on IRL but I’m still committed to this TL and have got some big plans for it. Hope you enjoy the update!

The Cold War seemed to predict an end to the decades of conflict which had plagued the 20th century. America was the undisputed hegemon, globalism and free trade made war less profitable and the rise of democracy across the globe made war far less likely. Yet, the Nineties featured many other violent conflicts, including those fought in Africa and Europe, but such wars lacked an ideological component, often fought against religious or ethnic violence, rather than ideological reasons. However, one war stands as an exception, the Second Korean War.

The Korean Wars represented the first and last war of the Cold War and the Second began with Kim Il-Sung’s death in the mid-1990s. The exact date of his death has been lost to history, with multiple clashing accounts between doctors, experts and testimonies stating he died in either October 1995 or February 1996. Yet, what is known, is that Il-Sung, who was morbidly obese and had suffered from many health problems throughout his life, suffered a severe health episode in 1994 (again, records are conflicting whether he suffered a heart attack or a stroke) which had left him paralysed, needing a wheelchair, and with severe difficulties speaking.

Il-Sung’s son and the heir apparent, Kim Jong-Il attempted to use his father’s health scare to replace his father and become the next leader. Military officials and bureaucratic leaders resisted this, fearing Il-Sung would recover and to maintain the illusion of stable leadership. Jong-Il, who was seen internally as overly autocratic, even more so than his father, had also grown increasingly unpopular among North Korean elites, who were organised by Kim Yong-ju and Hwang Jang-yop. Yong-Ju, Il-Sung’s younger brother, was an internal opponent of the cult of personality which had grown around his brother and instead sought a return to more traditional Marxism. Yong-Ju, already prominent in North Korea, used his brothers’ health episode to reconcile with him (caused by his demotion in favour of Jong-Il) and used this time wisely, slowly gained influence in the backrooms. Jong-Il's attempt to seize power, with his father still alive, was a major blow to Jong-Il's reputation and seemingly proved the fears of the military and bureaucratic elite.

The North Korean public were largely unaware of these backroom troubles, with Il-Sung’s heart attack and the severity of it being heavily censored by the North Korean media with his subsequent ‘recovery’ being trumpeted with multiple stories and videos featuring a healthy Il-Sung being fabricated. Those who owned TVs saw a healthy and vital leader, whilst those didn't continued on as they did before. Il-Sung also, whether due to his heart attack and health issues following, (through evidence uncovered during North Korean reconstruction) grew increasingly paranoid and angry, believing his heart attack to have been orchestrated by a foreign agent, or worse, by his own overly ambitious son.

As with most documents immediately preceding the North Korean Civil War, multiple conflicting accounts exist of the military takeover and a timeline has been impossible to verify. However, the widely accepted view is that when North Korean TV announced that Kim Il-Sung had died peacefully in his sleep in February 1996, and that an ‘emergency transition council’ had been established in the aftermath, marked the beginning of the 13-month-long North Korean Civil War. Jong-Il, who had been banished from father's company after his heath episode and on the backfoot, had found himself frozen out.

Jong-Il was undeterred however, collecting a loyal cadre of military officers and figures and launched a military coup against the emergency transition council. The year-long civil war afterwards (again it is unknown when Jong-Il was killed, with the best evidence pointing to April 1997) tore apart the nation and killed millions and exacerbated the deliberate northern famine of 1993-1997. The West looked on in shock and horror. South Korea began to prepare for a flood of refugees. China, having undergone a shift towards the West and Western values since the Tiananmen Protests, withdrew diplomatic and military support from the burning nation.

What escalated the North Korean Civil War into the Second Korean War was when a faction of North Korean troops loyal to Jong-Il, attacked and overran the Joint Security Area and the House of Peace on the 5 March 1997. Both buildings were housing refugees and political dissidents who were fleeing from violence. The likely target of the siege was Hwang Jang-yop, a prominent government official, who had criticised both Kim and the emergency government and attempt to defect to South Korea. The attack, dramatized in the opening scene of the Oscar winning film Parallel, represented an act of war against both South Korea and the international peacekeepers guarding the refugees. So began the Second Korean War.

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The US, largely organised through the leadership of Secretary of State Dick Cheney, who was both the most powerful and prominent figure in the Thompson Administration and would go on to become the longest serving Secretary of State since Cordell Hull, immediately retaliated to the flagrant breach of international law and the clear violation of the 1953 ceasefire. Launching air strikes against military positions in North Korea, US forces in tandem with South Korea who begun a rapid mobilisation of its troops, began to remilitarised the DMZ . The opening gambit was clear. The US attempted to destroy the offensive capabilities of the North to attack the South, whilst South Korea took the longer process of mobilising troops for an eventual retaliation to the 15 March siege.

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The North Korean ‘emergency transition council’, which controlled most military positions close to the DMZ, ordered a retaliation to this mobilisation. From previously secret positions, North Korean troops begun the now infamous, “Days of Death”. In barbaric and unthinkable ways, South Korea saw multiple chemical weapons attacks and bombings of Seoul and Incheon, which killed well over 200,000 civilians. South Korea, alongside the US, managed to destroy the artillery, missile sites and rocket launchers on the border at great cost, and managed to stop the worst of the attacks after two days. The losses were astronomical on all sides, but it represented a turning point in favour of the South and US.

The US sent a total of 160,000 troops to fight alongside South Korea, who mobilised 1,000,000 troops in response. By May 1997, with Britain, France, and Russia offering military, diplomatic and logistical support, the so-called “Freedom Coalition” crossed the DMZ and landed troops on the beaches near Chongjin. By July 1997, US and South Korean military troops had occupied the capital city of Pyongyang. Fighting against a suboptimal and fractured Korean People’s Army, the predictions of a drawn out and deadly slog were largely overestimated. Outside the “Days of Death” and the siege of Pyongyang, casualties were minimal (or within expected parameters). The reason for this was, simply, the bulk of what remained of the North Korean People’s Army was woefully underprepared for conflict, with at least 70% of its troops malnourished and most missing equipment like bullets, guns and in some cases shoes.

As images were broadcast of the destruction, death, and famine on the Korean Peninsula, both in the North and South, calls grew louder for action to alleviate the suffering. Of particular focus of Bob Geldof, the founder of Live Aid in 1985, was the man-made famine created in North and the seeming ambivalence of Coalition forces, who were focused on fighting and securing military supply lines. So, to raise further awareness of the suffering created by the wars, it was decided that Live Aid would return, this time as a series of charity concerts in multiple cities, broadcast simultaneously, live, across the globe. Live Aid 2 ran for four days across eleven cities, with its proceeds being given to the South Korean government, NGOs, and relief agencies to help fund reconstruction efforts.

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After the Fall of Pyongyang in August 1997, US and South Korean transitioned from invasion to occupation. Troops began anti-insurgency campaigns against Kim loyalists, in the rural north, who had received aid from the Chinese government. Outside of these insurgents, North Koreans, despite their seeming fanaticism towards the Kim regime, were largely peaceful and accepted the change in government. Most (North) Koreans saw their standards of living dramatically improve by the turn of millennium thanks to the end of the civil war, UN aid packages and charity.

South Korea, now formally known as Korea, was resistant to an immediate annexation of the North, fearing the cost and effort needed. Instead South Korea sought international support to administer the North. To gain this, and to provide the government with international legitimacy and recognition, the UN was authorised (begrudgingly by China, who ultimately preferred the UN to having the US or South Korea directly administer its neighbour) to form a protectorate in the region, which would last for 11 years. Kofi Annan became the administrator of the UN protectorate, and reconstruction began.

The UN protectorate forces and peacekeepers were mostly compromised of Chinese and Korean personnel, believed to be more capable of administering the province than the US. However, US troops still were prominent on the peninsula and acted outside of the UNnprotectorate, to fight insurgents, demilitarise the remaining North Korean army, militias, and loyalists, and provide material aid to the South for both rebuilding and for the eventual integration.

US troops would, from 1999, be gradually reduced by Thompson and his successor, before fully withdrawing in 2005, whilst (South) Korean troops would take over operational security in the former North the same year. In 2008, the protectorate was dissolved, and the North was fully integrated into the Republic of Korea.

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A 1990s Korean War does feel incredibly End of History, as one of the last bastions of Stalinist Autocracy (at the time it seemed) is destroyed by an international coalition of Liberal forces.
 
Another smashing success for the Thompson administration. The streak of him rollong Natural 20s continues unabated. We're entering parody at this point.
 
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That cast and crew of Parallel… 👀

Interesting take on a Second Korean War!

Thanks!
The cast for Parallel is a who’s-who of slightly obscure celebrities from action-y TV shows, with of course, a few of Nolan’s favourites like Washington, Caine and Brannagh.
I actually did have a write up for Parallel ,but I didn’t want to put it in the update because it wouldn’t really fit. I might put up in my test thread later but the general gist of it is an psychological thriller about the end of North Korea and the personal and human damages caused by it. Stan is a black ops member with his team, Park is a dissident and refugee and the rest of the cast are mostly in supporting roles.

A 1990s Korean War does feel incredibly End of History, as one of the last bastions of Stalinist Autocracy (at the time it seemed) is destroyed by an international coalition of Liberal forces.

Even Communist China got involved and to support the capitalist powers and abandoned NK. Francis Fukuyama would be delighted by this TL (probably).

Another smashing success for the Thompson administration. The streak of him rollong Natural 20s continues unabated. We're entering parody at this point.

I don’t see how a violent war which kills millions, alongside killing thousands of American soldiers, more than who died in Iraq, is a “smashing success”. It's not. And it was never supposed to be. Sure North Korea is gone, which is a good thing for the world (not just the US), but its not a victory for the ol' USA. Its a bloody quagmire they were caught in and forced to fight in.

I think my TL has been apt in trying to negotiate multiple points and create a different world whilst trying to respect my own political bias, long term trends and sociocultural issues. If you read the rest of the TL, you see the left is doing pretty well, as there’s both more left-wing and lefty-ier governments in every nation than OTL which I’ve looked into, outside of America, at this point, in the TL. Even then, the Democrats are far more left wing than they were under Clinton and 1996 saw Republicans do far worse than they should've in 1996 considering the politics trends of the decade and strong economic climate.
 
Thanks!
The cast for Parallel is a who’s-who of slightly obscure celebrities from action-y TV shows, with of course, a few of Nolan’s favourites like Washington, Caine and Brannagh.
I actually did have a write up for Parallel ,but I didn’t want to put it in the update because it wouldn’t really fit. I might put up in my test thread later but the general gist of it is an psychological thriller about the end of North Korea and the personal and human damages caused by it. Stan is a black ops member with his team, Park is a dissident and refugee and the rest of the cast are mostly in supporting roles.



Even Communist China got involved and to support the capitalist powers and abandoned NK. Francis Fukuyama would be delighted by this TL (probably).



I don’t see how a violent war which kills millions, alongside killing thousands of American soldiers, more than who died in Iraq, is a “smashing success”. It's not. And it was never supposed to be. Sure North Korea is gone, which is a good thing for the world (not just the US), but its not a victory for the ol' USA. Its a bloody quagmire they were caught in and forced to fight in.

I think my TL has been apt in trying to negotiate multiple points and create a different world whilst trying to respect my own political bias, long term trends and sociocultural issues. If you read the rest of the TL, you see the left is doing pretty well, as there’s both more left-wing and lefty-ier governments in every nation than OTL which I’ve looked into, outside of America, at this point, in the TL. Even then, the Democrats are far more left wing than they were under Clinton and 1996 saw Republicans do far worse than they should've in 1996 considering the politics trends of the decade and strong economic climate.
The rally around the flag effect is very real. You've already established this timeline's GOP as being unfettered enough to run (and win on) an unapologetically racist campaign - what's to prevent them from replicating their 2002/2004 OTL playbook and tar even single Democrat as anti-Americans who hate the troops for daring to oppose the intervention in Korea? There's a reason "rally around the flag" is a cliche after all in politics.

I don't know your personal biases and I don't care to - they aren't topical to the discussion here. What is topical is the results on the page: Since the POD Republicans have won three Presidential elections to Democrat's one. They won - and held - both Houses of Congress four years earlier than OTL. The lone Democratic administration was an absolute shitshow. Meanwhile both Reagan and Thompson got nearly all of their respective agenda passed no problem. Thompson has gotten everything he wants domestically and internationally with no actual push back when it comes to elections - you know, what actually matters in America. Hart and his speaker (Tip?) loathed each other. Thompson and his are best friends. And on it goes. The scale only goes one way so far in the US and has for fourteen years.

Who knew when that missile wrecked that aircraft carrier in the South Atlantic it actually destroyed the Democratic Party too?
 
The rally around the flag effect is very real. You've already established this timeline's GOP as being unfettered enough to run (and win on) an unapologetically racist campaign - what's to prevent them from replicating their 2002/2004 OTL playbook and tar even single Democrat as anti-Americans who hate the troops for daring to oppose the intervention in Korea? There's a reason "rally around the flag" is a cliche after all in politics.

I don't know your personal biases and I don't care to - they aren't topical to the discussion here. What is topical is the results on the page: Since the POD Republicans have won three Presidential elections to Democrat's one. They won - and held - both Houses of Congress four years earlier than OTL. The lone Democratic administration was an absolute shitshow. Meanwhile both Reagan and Thompson got nearly all of their respective agenda passed no problem. Thompson has gotten everything he wants domestically and internationally with no actual push back when it comes to elections - you know, what actually matters in America. Hart and his speaker (Tip?) loathed each other. Thompson and his are best friends. And on it goes. The scale only goes one way so far in the US and has for fourteen years.

Who knew when that missile wrecked that aircraft carrier in the South Atlantic it actually destroyed the Democratic Party too?
I did not mention a rally around the flag effect in the update. I did not mention American domestic politics and I did not mention either party's response to the attack and war (not intervention) against South Korea.

Whilst I'm glad my TL has got your attention, out of 42 posts, only 6 (two of which were based in other nations and is more to give flavour and show a different and more volatile world) cover America. Honestly, its a pretty minor part of the TL. I'm not going to spend time trying to justify myself when the answers I give you will be ignored anyway, as they have been before.

I have tried to respectfully answer your questions but it’s clear from your now increasingly sarcastic responses you don’t respect that. Listen, I’m always happy to respond to questions and concerns, that’s one of my favourite parts of this TL for me, but I won’t respond to sarcasm and pettiness.
 
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I did not mention a rally around the flag effect in the update. I did not mention American domestic politics and I did not mention either party's response to the attack and war (not intervention) against South Korea.

Whilst I'm glad my TL has got your attention, out of 42 posts, only 6 (two of which were based in other nations and is more to give flavour and show a different and more volatile world) cover America. Honestly, its a pretty minor part of the TL. I'm not going to spend time trying to justify myself when the answers I give you will be ignored anyway, as they have been before.

I have tried to respectfully answer your questions but it’s clear from your now increasingly sarcastic responses you don’t respect that. Listen, I’m always happy to respond to questions and concerns, that’s one of my favourite parts of this TL for me, but I won’t respond to sarcasm and pettiness.
I haven't commented the on domestic events or elections in Russia/UK/Australia/elsewhere you've written about because I don't know enough about OTL's events to feel confident enough to compare them to ITTL's events. I generally try not to speak on things that I know very little about.

But above that - we've tread over the same ground and have reached something of an impasse. This is your timeline so in the interest of not getting banned or negatively affecting you I won't comment anymore.
 
@Nevran I just finished reading what you have written so far and I have to say that it is AMAZING. I really like the Wiki box style and the writing is very interesting. By the way, I'm really curious about how Italy will change without Berlusconi and how countries like Libya, Iraq and Somalia (did the country still collapse ITTL?) are doing.
 
It would've been either red and blue [with each network choosing which party was red and blue itself] until the 1996 election, when CBS made the Democrats gold (to be different) because the as of yet unnamed nominee (*spoilers*) comes from a sun belt state and was running on a 'sun-belt strategy'. Further, without a TTL 2000 election, the red-blue dynamic doesn't fully hardened in the public's mind so America and so the media reverts to a liberal = yellow, conservative = blue dynamic.

It's probably ASB as it defies American historical convention since the 1800s but to be honest, it was more for me to experiment with a different colour scheme for the parties rather than use red and blue. Plus, it looks cool.

Why is the Dems using gold and the GOP blue
 
@Nevran I just finished reading what you have written so far and I have to say that it is AMAZING. I really like the Wiki box style and the writing is very interesting. By the way, I'm really curious about how Italy will change without Berlusconi and how countries like Libya, Iraq and Somalia (did the country still collapse ITTL?) are doing.
Thanks!!! Sorry for the shockingly late reply too and hope this makes up for it. I should also be a bit more active now these days too, now that I’ve finished exams and stuff.

Basically, Berlusconi doesn’t move quickly enough and gets caught up in Mani Pulite. While he was found not guilty of corruption charges and tax evasion his reputation has been trashed enough that he won’t become PM, even if he’s still influential behind the scenes.
The centre-left coalition collapsed led by Ochetto, then a technocratic cabinet is formed led by Ruggerio in 1996 and an election the next year sees Mario Segni become PM, leading a centre right pact.

Libya is, to summarise and generalise, a sectarian nightmare. Operation El Dorado is successful in this TL, and British and American air strikes kill Gaddafi which means his regime falls. While a military junta is established after, it proves weak and without authority so the nation de-facto breaks down into a series of conflicting cliques. Whilst never a civil war, it becomes a failed state and resembles Iraq in the 2010s. This allows for the rise of terrorist networks such as the GIA and Al’Qaeda to gain footholds and mean that the NATO intervention in Algeria encompasses anti-terrorist actions in Libya also.

Somalia still has as a depressing path as in OTL. Government collapses, Somaliland is formed and Somalia becomes a “failed state”. There’s no Black Hawk Down equivalent, but it’s still a crapshoot.

Iraq will be covered more later, but largely the situation is the same as OTL. The nation is suffering crippling sanctions which hurts the people more than the Hussein family and there’s continuing human rights abuses. However, there’s not a clamour for invasion either, as even the neo-cons like Cheney can see that the US is overextended militarily.

Why is the Dems using gold and the GOP blue

Yeah that was the ‘canon’ reason as why I did that but a large part of the reason why I chose gold and blue was to differentiate and experiment with the wikiboxes and America.

Could McCarthy be able to run for president? I thought he was a naturalized citizen, having been born in New Zealand to Irish parents.

Damn you’re right… Dunno how that slipped past me.
I’ll do a quick edit then to show a slightly different Democratic Primary with the “establishment liberal”. My first time thought is that the wing could be represented by an older Michael Dukakis, who probably would have a later run at the nomination if he lost it in ‘88 ‘92. Any other ideas on who could be a good substitute?
 
Unrelated, but how do you make the maps? I can easily make the wikiboxes, but the maps are really hard. They don't fill neatly by state with a paint bucket tool, instead it just fills everything. And I don't know how to change the names displayed on the key, either. Is there some tool or trick to doing this?
 
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