Excelsior III continued and expanded

Air-to-air nuclear warheads were strictly for defensive use over North America.

:rolleyes: Gee, but they were mounted regularly on Aircraft not dedicated to America's defense.

Decoys and chaff work very well in vacuum; in fact, they work best in vacuum, because when they begin to reenter they declutter from the real warheads. Of course, once they've started reentering, you only have seconds to act...and if there are a lot of them, overwhelming point defenses is fairly trivial.

What part of they don't work and have not been made to work don't you understand moron. The ABM will destroy the bus long before it has the chance to deploy anyway.
It's not that simple, just turning them off and switching them back off...that's out of the question for many of those electronics. It's not a TV or a toaster, for Christ's sake, but a very complicated and fragile radar, say...you don't just switch them on and off! That'd damage or destroy them; they're not designed for that.

:rolleyes: Yes they are as they have to be when dealing with enemies armed with HARMs.
 
Even if the device is switched off, the EMP will still produce overvoltages in all the circuits. It doesn't have to be on! I think the overvoltage itself is enough to physically damage the circuitry; things melt and fuse, for example.

:rolleyes: Do you even know what you are talking about. Circuit Breakers and Surge Proctor prevent that.

A lot of the time it's even enough to overwhelm circuit breakers.

No it isn't and you are talking out your ass. I sourced my information. Start sourcing yours.
That massive pulse of electromagnetic radiation produces in radar receivers an effect comparable to flash blindness, too.

From the Article I linked, which you have not read.

High-Altitude EMP (HEMP)

Electro-magnetic pulse is a broadband, high-intensity, short-duration burst of electromagnetic energy, most commonly resulting from a high-altitude nuclear initiation. The electromagnetic pulse consists of a continuous frequency spectrum from below one hertz to one gigahertz. with most of the energy distributed through the 3 Hz and 30 kHz bands. Peak electric fields can reach tens of thousands of volts per meter. These effects cover an area defined by the line of sight from the detonation to the earth's horizon. In other words, if the initiation can be seen from a given location, that location will experience some level of EMP. The area that can be effected by a HEMP pulse is enormous. For example, a suitable large nuclear device initiated 400 kilometers (250 miles) above Kansas will generate an electromagnetic pulse that will cover nearly the entire contiguous 48 states. The pulse itself is relatively harmless. The danger comes when it is picked up by metallic conductors such as wires or power cables. These act as antennas to conduct the energy shockwave into the electronic systems of cars, airplanes, and communications equipment. There, they can produce damaging currents and voltage surges.

So, what is this HEMP of which so many speak? HEMP is actually a child of a thing called the Compton Effect. Gamma radiation from a nuclear initiation isn't really that much of a problem; its absorbed by the atmosphere before it can do any harm to anything that hasn't already been comprehensively destroyed by the other effects of a nuclear device. However, once we start initiating devices at higher and higher altitudes, the atmosphere gets thinner and thinner and the distance traveled by the gamma radiation gets greater and greater. When we initiate a device in a vacuum, there is nothing to absorb the gamma radiation. It drops in intensity with distance due to the cube-law effect (for a sphere, surface area is proportional to the cube of the radius; thus doubling the radius form the point of initiation reduces the intensity of the gamma pulse by a factor of eight, tripling the radius by a factor of 27). Note the importance of atmospheric density here; if it's too great, the gamma gets absorbed before it can do anything. In real terms, the lower limit for a HEMP-generating initiation is 40 kilometers, any lower than that and HEMP just doesn't happen.

When we initiate a nuclear device, the formation of a HEMP begins with the very intense, but very short burst of gamma rays caused by the nuclear reactions within the device. About 0.3% of the device's yield is contained within the pulse which lasts for only 10 nanoseconds at most. This is a very important thing to note. Electromagnetic pulse is just that - a pulse. It lasts for 10 nanoseconds. It does not hang around for hours. It is, quite literally, in the same order of duration as a lightning flash.

So, the gamma rays generated by the initiation propagate outwards as a sphere from the point of initiation. The only ones of any interest are the ones that go downwards, towards the earth. Initially, the atmosphere is thin and the gamma rays penetrate it. As they do so, a thing called the Compton Recoil takes place. The gamma collides with electrons in air molecules, and eject the electrons at high energies by way of a process called Compton scattering. (Compton did pretty well, he has a lot of things named after him). These energetic electrons in turn knock other electrons loose, and create a cascade effect that produces some 30,000 electrons for every original gamma ray. Eventually, the air gets too thick for this to continue and it peters out. That happens at around 20 kilometers. So we now have a defined layer of atmosphere in which HEMP is generated 20 to 40 kilometers altitude. Please note this is quite independent of device initiation altitude or the size of the device. These electrons released in the upper atmosphere by the incident Gamma rays encounter the earths magnetic field. This causes them to spiral round the field, thus producing a huge line of current loops and creating a powerful downward directed electromagnetic pulse lasting a few microseconds.

So we have an EMP gneration defined. To occur, the device must be initiated above a critical altitude and the EMP is generated within the atmosphere below that device. The strength of the HEMP generated is directly proportional to the intensity of the gamma ray burst that kicked it off. Thus, the higher the initiation is above the critical atmosphere band that generates EMP, the weaker is the gamma ray pulse that hits the band. Eventually, if the device is high enough, the strength of the EMP pulse generated is inconsequential.

The pulse generated is pretty much a bell curve. This is very important; there is a period when the electrical surge induced in wiring and antennas by the HEMP is detectable but not dangerous. This can be used to detect the presence of a pulse coming and undertake counter-actions. Contrary to mythology, comprehensive protection against HEMP surges is technically very easy; it adds around five to ten percent of the cost of a piece of military electronics (proportionally the cost of protection drops as the cost of equipment rises). Pretty much all military electronics is EMP-protected. To put the HEMP surge into context, its at least an order of magnitude less powerful that that resulting from a lightning strike on a telephone line.

The simplest countermeasure of all is also the most effective. Switch the kit off. That's what normally happens. The surge is detected , the kit switches off, 10 nanoseconds later the surge has gone and the kit switches back on again. For, taking an example, a radar system, that 10 nanosecond gap is inconsequential; the operators wouldn't even notice it.
In a car today, well...it's much more complicated than that. Modern automobiles are full of microcontrollers and other sophisticated circuitry; it's generally mission-critical. Even if they're off, unless you take some rather awkward measures to shield them, the overvoltages will physically damage them. You'd have a lot to replace.

:rolleyes:

ABMs are very expensive, too...the attackers, meanwhile, can just add a little more in the way of countermeasures and maybe additional RVs after a slight improvement in throw weight, and overwhelm the defenses they encounter. They can afford to harden their ICBMs against radiation and EMP much more than the defenders can, say, harden any hypothetical orbital weapons platforms; they can open the way by detonating a bunch of nukes just in orbit in order to screw everything over, and maybe release a bunch of gravel, too, following up with their actual ICBMs. They can use SLBMs launched from close-in, flying on low trajectories...they can open the way using nuclear cruise missiles...

Won't work as the buses will be destroyed before they deploy.
 
Do have to love how you decided to completely ignore my post.

Gee, but they were mounted regularly on Aircraft not dedicated to America's defense.

Name them and source them.

Yes they are as they have to be when dealing with enemies armed with HARMs.

Do you have an actual source for how long it takes to shut down and restart a radar safely and effectively? Do remember that there is a vast difference between shutting down a radar after detection of a HARM launch and doing so in the nanoseconds you have prior to EMP surge totally screwing it up.
 
Do have to love how you decided to completely ignore my post.

I've answered you several times and if you are too stupid to read, not my problem. Especially with regards to Hypersonic Aircraft which you called ASB tech. Newsflash moron, the Shuttle in order to achieve orbit has to fly at Hypersonic speed of 25,000 mile per hour at least.

Name them and source them.

AIM-26 Falcon http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html

Mounted on F-102s. Also F-4s were armed with AA Nuclear missiles. See the Liberty Incident for further details as F-4s originally sent to help the Liberty had to be recalled because they were carrying AA Nuclear Missiles.


Do you have an actual source for how long it takes to shut down and restart a radar safely and effectively? Do remember that there is a vast difference between shutting down a radar after detection of a HARM launch and doing so in the nanoseconds you have prior to EMP surge totally screwing it up.

The burden of proof is on you to disprove a Defense Contractor who knows his shit, not me. Put up or shut up moron. Oh wait, you can't even read a bolded paragraph which I sourced.
 
I've answered you several times and if you are too stupid to read, not my problem.

And your reply to post #16 would be where?

Especially with regards to Hypersonic Aircraft which you called ASB tech. Newsflash moron, the Shuttle in order to achieve orbit has to fly at Hypersonic speed of 25,000 mile per hour at least.'

I'm sorry if I thought you could understand from context that we were talking about airbreathing hypersonic vehicles. I'll make sure to state things in real simple terms for you next time, ok? Orbital vehicles, while they do go past Mach 5, are generally not considered examples of hypersonic vehicles. Hypersonics are generally considered to be vehicles which sustain powered flight with airbreathing engines. X-43 is a hypersonic missile. The Space Shuttle is an orbital vehicle that glides hypersonically during re-entry, but is not capable of sustained flight at that speed nor is it designed for it.

AIM-26 Falcon http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html

Mounted on F-102s. Also F-4s were armed with AA Nuclear missiles. See the Liberty Incident for further details as F-4s originally sent to help the Liberty had to be recalled because they were carrying AA Nuclear Missiles.

F-102s were homeland defense fighters and their brief deployment to Vietnam did not include the AIM-26. I really would like to see a source for your assertion that some F-4 Phantom IIs were armed with air-to-air nuclear missiles. I've not seen that before. Also, since when were Navy F-4Bs armed with the Air Force AIM-26 Falcons? For that matter, do we have a source that Phantoms were launched in the first place? What I've seen indicates that Saratoga launched four Skyhawks and four Skyraiders.

Also, you completely missed the point of my question. You stated that air to air nuclear missiles were regularly issued and equipped on aircraft not dedicated to America's defense. I asked you to name these aircraft and to source your assertions for them.

The burden of proof is on you to disprove a Defense Contractor who knows his shit, not me. Put up or shut up moron. Oh wait, you can't even read a bolded paragraph which I sourced.

Burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. You are making the assertion that a radar can successfully detect a HEMP surge in time to shut down and then restart with no appreciable damage. Also, why should we believe this one particular defense analyst? Provide some evidence to backup his assertions. The fact that he is a defense analyst is completely worthless in and of itself.
 
The so called "defense contractor" is a glorified fanfiction writer with a net name (as he could be anybody in IRL as he has no off net appearance) Stuart Slade, a bomber wanker who is confident B-70 is best weapon ever designed, and genocide is best foreign policy.
 

Ian the Admin

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I've answered you several times and if you are too stupid to read, not my problem. Especially with regards to Hypersonic Aircraft which you called ASB tech. Newsflash moron, the Shuttle in order to achieve orbit has to fly at Hypersonic speed of 25,000 mile per hour at least.

...

The burden of proof is on you to disprove a Defense Contractor who knows his shit, not me. Put up or shut up moron. Oh wait, you can't even read a bolded paragraph which I sourced.

Cut out the insults and act like a mature poster.
 
The so called "defense contractor" is a glorified fanfiction writer with a net name (as he could be anybody in IRL as he has no off net appearance) Stuart Slade, a bomber wanker who is confident B-70 is best weapon ever designed, and genocide is best foreign policy.

Ah, thank you. I suspected something along those lines.

Anyway, as technically impressive as the XB-70 was, if it went in using the attack profile the designers intended and designed it for, which is really the only thing it could do, it wouldn't have lasted very long in Soviet airspace, if it even made it into Soviet airspace.
 
grdja83

Stuart Slade is a licensed Engineer with
BSc in Chemical Engineering from University of London and gained an endorsement for BSc for Marine Engineering, and he is a systems analyst specializing in defense and naval electronics. . If you ask him he'll show his credentials. Heck ask me what gives me authority to tell you how to fill out a legal document or what legal document to get in a law office, I'll show you my paralegal degree or give you my name, place of schooling and Student ID for you to check. When I get my license to practice law, I can give you my bar number to show I can indeed defend you or sue for you and give you legal advice.

For your information, the Genocide found his his series was exactly what the thinking was at that time and if we had used nukes on Germany to gain such a victory, its what would have continued to be our policy. He is quite accurate in that respect and chilling as it is, its silly to assume otherwise as History has shown that nations survive by making examples of other nations.

So once again burden of proof falls on you to disprove an expert in this field of EMP.

grr: damn formatting acting up again.
 

CalBear

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I've answered you several times and if you are too stupid to read, not my problem. Especially with regards to Hypersonic Aircraft which you called ASB tech. Newsflash moron, the Shuttle in order to achieve orbit has to fly at Hypersonic speed of 25,000 mile per hour at least.



AIM-26 Falcon http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html

Mounted on F-102s. Also F-4s were armed with AA Nuclear missiles. See the Liberty Incident for further details as F-4s originally sent to help the Liberty had to be recalled because they were carrying AA Nuclear Missiles.




The burden of proof is on you to disprove a Defense Contractor who knows his shit, not me. Put up or shut up moron. Oh wait, you can't even read a bolded paragraph which I sourced.


The Alert aircraft that were launched to support USS Liberty were A4 Skyhawks. Since the CBG was east of Cyprus it had automatically become part of the then existing SIOP & it was required to have a ready nuclear strike package. Those were the ready birds and that was what the CBG commander launched (causing quite the panic in DC).

I would again ask for your documentation from reputable researchers either in book, journal or on-line format (as has been done, without reply, in a number of other threads where original, ground breaking, research is implied) regarding the 6th Fleet launching aircraft with code activated nuclear armed AAM at any time in 1967 while in the Med.
 
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CalBear

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Would it be in time, before the drop is made?


Tell that to the pilots who flew near those heights over the Soviet Union in Blackbirds, in which they were juking left and right to avoid missiles



Did I say they couldn't



Actually a Hypersonic Plane is less expensive, recallable, can manuever, can defend itself, and be more accurate than ICBMs which never should have been built. ICBMs are too easily interceptable as their entire approach is dictated by gravity, stick a nuke on an ABM and no more ICBM. If the U.S. hadn't dismantled U.S. Air Defense Grid, we have nuke tipped Nike missiles around our major cities, rendering a nuclear strike by ICBMs an impossibility.

Also once Hypersonic Planes are cleared for civilian use, trips around the world are a lot faster and development of Skip Bombers that can enter low orbit actually is of great help to NASA.


Please provide your source for SR-71 "juking" to avoid SAM. The SR-71 was able to do penetration due to high speed, fairly stealthy design, and weakness in the Soviet ADZ perimeter. By the early '70's the central portions of the USSR was a "no-go" area for the Blackbird.

Also, I would be facinated to see the open source documents (not claims by some web site, but USAF or DoD documents) that show that 1960's era SAM could render a 10,000 warhead (or even a 250 warhead) ICBM strike "an impossibility". Since the 2008 version of missile defense is barely able to make such intercepts, the claim that 60's tech could achieve it is totally ground breaking. and would radically alter the history of the Cold War.
 
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