Exact Geography of Godwinson's England

i know this isn't exactly right for the pre-1900 forum, but i couldn't think of a better place to put it. i'm trying to figure out what would be a good alternate evolution for the English flag in a TL where the Norman Conquest doesn't succeed and, to that end, need to know exactly which parts of Britain were formally part of the Kingdom of England in 1066 when Harold Godwinson was chosen to succeed Edward the Confessor. for example, i seem to remember reading that Godwinson was planning a conquest of the Welsh after he fully secured the throne (which obviously didn't happen, but iirc William ended up doing that anyway) so did that count as "not part of England" or was it more to the effect of "re-establishing order"?
 
i know this isn't exactly right for the pre-1900 forum, but i couldn't think of a better place to put it. i'm trying to figure out what would be a good alternate evolution for the English flag in a TL where the Norman Conquest doesn't succeed and, to that end, need to know exactly which parts of Britain were formally part of the Kingdom of England in 1066

To the best of my knowledge The only formal border might have been with the Scots in the north, the Welsh I think were fair game. As for flags the wyvern flag has been used.
 
teh actual flag isn't what i'm wondering about at the moment ;) i'm just trying to figure out if the process for the changes to the flag would be different from OTL's Union Jack. that's why i'm wondering about the geography at the time of the POD
 
The Anglo-Scottish border is more or less as per the modern one in the East. There's a lot of discussion about when the Scots take Bernicia north of the Tweed, but the latest of the answers being debated is '1018'.

In the West, it's a different kettle of fish. The top half of Cumbria is definitely under Scots control, although there's a bit of confusion here because the British Cumbrian Kingdom stretched as far North as the Clyde in its heyday, so the terminology can confuse. I read a journal article on this very issue last month. I'll have a look for it later today, just to see if I've missed anything.
 
Without the Norman Conquest, the English church would continue to slip away from Rome. The reason why I mention this is because the flag we call today the Cross of Saint George was introduced to the English during the Third Crusade. Before then a White Dragon on a red field was used to represent the English nation. This all stems from Arthurian legend and the fact that the Kingdom of Wessex was represented by a "gold" dragon. Harold Godwineson would of been very familiar with this for he was the Earl of Wessex before being crowned. This is proved further if you look at the Bayeux Tapestry especially when Harold is being depicted. I sincerely doubt that this would change due to the strong cultural tie this has with the English nation then and many today. The only other real alternative would be a banner representing Saint Edmund the Martyr, the original patron saint of the English who, like the white dragon was replaced by Saint George. Unless a powerful outside force was to change the rule of the English nation, it be very, very unlikely the flag will change beyond minor variation of the "original". That being said, an extreme internal force could change this however like Cromwell or the Acts of Union in otl, not much really changed.

For the matter of borders, that is difficult at times but this website may be of help for whatever you need. http://www.englandandenglishhistory.com/
 
teh actual flag isn't what i'm wondering about at the moment ;) i'm just trying to figure out if the process for the changes to the flag would be different from OTL's Union Jack. that's why i'm wondering about the geography at the time of the POD

Changes would definitely be different since the Union Flag arose from ways to combine the English and Scottish Flags of the time.

Bear in mind as well that there were lots of devices and that flags didn't really represent countries per se at the time rather armies and their leaders hence why a lot of modern flags have evolved out of arms of kings
 
Changes would definitely be different since the Union Flag arose from ways to combine the English and Scottish Flags of the time.

Bear in mind as well that there were lots of devices and that flags didn't really represent countries per se at the time rather armies and their leaders hence why a lot of modern flags have evolved out of arms of kings

which i'll be exploring separately from this ;) the symbols themselves are unimportant to the discussion at hand--what i'm trying to figure out is exactly what Godwinson's England looked like at the time of the POD so that, when i start formally rewriting the history, i can make the changes to the flag appropriately. at the moment, it's looking like the order may be more or less the same as IOTL: start England, then Scotland, then Ireland. i'm already looking into other and alternate flags and symbols of the other parts of Britain to try and get ideas.
 
which i'll be exploring separately from this ;) the symbols themselves are unimportant to the discussion at hand--what i'm trying to figure out is exactly what Godwinson's England looked like at the time of the POD so that, when i start formally rewriting the history, i can make the changes to the flag appropriately. at the moment, it's looking like the order may be more or less the same as IOTL: start England, then Scotland, then Ireland. i'm already looking into other and alternate flags and symbols of the other parts of Britain to try and get ideas.

So you want an alternate Great Britain with an Anglo-Saxon England, but are trying to find flag ideas? I don't think there would be a Union Jack format you can work off of. Would quartered arms work, although I don't know if that would look good.
 
With no Norman Conquest or harrying of the north and a generally stronger Anglo-Saxon England it is likely that the Scots would soon be pushed back from their recent southward expansion- its quite the accident of history that the border is as far south as it is.
With the Scots kept largely to the Highlands... its unlikely they'll ever be much of a threat to an organised England.

So you're looking for an alternative union flag?
Wessex dragon? Cross of St.Cuthbert? Seaxe?... lots of things you can include in there.
 
With no Norman Conquest or harrying of the north and a generally stronger Anglo-Saxon England it is likely that the Scots would soon be pushed back from their recent southward expansion- its quite the accident of history that the border is as far south as it is.
With the Scots kept largely to the Highlands... its unlikely they'll ever be much of a threat to an organised England.

So you're looking for an alternative union flag?
Wessex dragon? Cross of St.Cuthbert? Seaxe?... lots of things you can include in there.
 
So you want an alternate Great Britain with an Anglo-Saxon England, but are trying to find flag ideas? I don't think there would be a Union Jack format you can work off of. Would quartered arms work, although I don't know if that would look good.

just the process for how the flag of the eventually unified Great Britain and Ireland is formed. i was just trying to figure out the geography of England at the time to determine what ISN'T part of it and therefore what could be incorporated into the flag and when after i get around to writing that part of the TL and working with flags and symbols from there. my intention now is to use basically the same process that formed OTL's Union Jack, just possibly in a different order (maybe the Irish elements are added before the Scottish ones, for example) and with different symbols (i'll almost certainly be starting with the Wessex wyvern)
 
My best guess then would be that as Tyr suggests the Scots are halted southward and a more northern border held.
The Welsh would likely be the first included - I expect Harold's heirs to romanticise the Bretwalda title and declare a HighKingship of Britain under themselves. This will be where you can base the original union flag - I'd suggest a symbol [1] or arms [2] over colours representing the English and the Welsh [3].
Then you can adjust the symbols and colours as the other isle nations are added.
Perhaps Ireland is added first as OTL with the Irish HighKingship being added to the English-Welsh one [4], perhaps the Scots are liberated from the Norwegian Empire, perhaps it's the Kingdom of Mann, etc

Upshot is you get a basic Union Flag with minor components added (or removed!) to represent the constituent parts - perhaps separate shields around a common symbol

[1] perhaps a golden wyvern or cross or some combination
[2] if this occurs close to when personal arms became hereditary
[3] stripes or quartering
[4] yep, OTL Henry II was a recognised High King of Ireland
 
so d'you think i should be counting Wales as something incorporated into the flag? (that was one of my big speculating points since they're outright conquered here rather than "peacefully" becoming part of the country by a political marriage)
 
so d'you think i should be counting Wales as something incorporated into the flag? (that was one of my big speculating points since they're outright conquered here rather than "peacefully" becoming part of the country by a political marriage)

There is no Wales at this point - just a few Welsh Kingdoms.
I'm assuming that with Bretwalda romanticisation Harold's heirs would claim Kingship over all the English and all the Welsh and incorporate that into flags, banners, and standards.
 
A symbol of the welsh was a red dragon, I'd imagine the combined war standard might be an intertwined red dragon and golden wyvern, perhaps a crown overarching the two.
 
i was looking into some Welsh symbols and was directed to the House of Mathrafal's banner, which fits best into the timespan of when Godwinson (or his descendants) would be taking over Wales, but the red and gold (or maybe red and white, for an Arthurian link) dragons are also good
 
i was looking into some Welsh symbols and was directed to the House of Mathrafal's banner, which fits best into the timespan of when Godwinson (or his descendants) would be taking over Wales, but the red and gold (or maybe red and white, for an Arthurian link) dragons are also good

I don't think Arthurian symbols would go so well with the Anglo-Saxon's although no Norman Conquest could see that all go away, so no King Arthur as we know him.
 
the Arthurian thing may well come up later on in any case with the Anglo-Saxons of later centuries co-opting the symbols--it's just extremely tempting to include some Arthurian references ;)
 
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