Evil Stuff in the Middle Ages

Is it ok to write about it?

  • Yes, go ahead.

    Votes: 49 96.1%
  • No, you'd better refrain.

    Votes: 2 3.9%

  • Total voters
    51

Zagan

Donor
As we all very well know, the Middle Ages was a time when democracy, the rule of law and the human rights were, depending of country, either completely non-existent or at least very different to what they mean in the present.
Consequently, what we now might consider as unbelievably evil, wicked things happened on a fairly regular basis.
It is obvious that such unfortunate happenings would be commonplace in any ATL as well.

Introduction long enough! The question is:
Is it ok to have horrible, evil stuff described or depicted in an ATL or should it be somehow avoided by white-washing, ommision or at least have it only alluded?
And I mean heavy stuff like genocide, ethnic cleansing, cruel and unusual punishments, religious, ethnic or racial mocking, oppression, hatred and violence and so on.

Note: I do not mean a TL based on stuff like this, basicaly a Vlad Tepeș Award. I simply ask about a few such occurences.

Here I am asking the community if I should do that.
Do you think I should also ask a moderator I am allowed to? Because I do not want to get in trouble / get any sanctions. And how to ask a moderator anyway? They do not seem to read what's posted around here, only what is being reported.
 
Unless you are supporting, encouraging, excusing or denying these atrocities, go ahead. They happened, its part of history. I personally believe it to be an insult if someone ignores rather important parts of history. It could be as much as just a mention to total focus.

Of course i would recommend only doing a story that totally focusses on an atrocity with a very good reason, not just to be shocking or repulsive. They do weigh heavier for some people and you should take that into account.
 

Deimos

Banned
I think it depends on writing style and who you are going to portray.

If you tend more towards alternate history your tone will be a lot drier ad the approach will be more clinical and interested in the facts and effects of the POD. Just like real, respectable history books are usually not detailing the horrible practices mankind is capable of.
Should you be more interested in writing alternate history, then you will try to be closer to the 'action' and will portray history through real or fictional people of the chosen time period. This would allow you to show some some of the 'evil stuff' more up close and in more detail.

The latter method probably has two exceptions.
1. Do not confine the unpleasantness to one certain socioeconomic class, religion or ethnicity. You might be accused of bias and hate speech.
2. Know when you are going too far. This is a public forum and I have never seen someone here really portray torture or rape in as much grisly detail as some books I have read do. Think of movie labels and their ratings, anything on the level of actual porn or torture porn will probably never be tolerated.
 
Use caution. For two reasons; one, the youngest people on this site are 13 and making something that goes too far what you would see in a PG-13 film is going to get you into trouble (same reason stuff like porn is banned); second, make sure what you are depicting actually did happen in the Medieval Period*, because a considerable amount of the popular image of Medieval Europe has been formed by Renaissance scholars who wanted to bash.

teg

*And in the right part of the Middle Ages.
 

Zagan

Donor
Thank you for your answers.
It is actually what I have thought in the first place, I only wanted to make sure.
I will simply state the atrocities commited, devoid of any vivid description.
For example, I will state that the prisoner was tortured and then killed, by I will not describe any tortures.
 
I hold the opinion that -not- mentioning evil stuff does a disservice to history and the people who lived through said stuff, especially when this is done to soften the historical narrative so as not to offend some in a given audience.

If you are someone who gets 'triggered' easily, then that is too bad.
 

Zagan

Donor
A horrible thought just passed through my mind...
What would any Muslim think while reading a TL where a Middle Ages Christian King oppresses and discriminates against Muslims, forbids them to practice their faith, attempts to forcefully convert or expel them??
 

Zagan

Donor
Ok. The results are clear.
Another question, please.

Is it possible to write about bad things, without being attacked by members thinking that I actually condone them?

I mean something like this: A ruler in my ATL does something cruel or racist or whatever.
I imagine that some members will jump at throat thinking I am a sadist or a racist or whatever.

Can this be mitigated, for example by using footnotes, disclaimers etc?
 
Don't see the need for disclaimers, unless you go out of your way to make a note of you specifically advocating horrid things nobody should think anything bad in an alternate history TL is something the author wants to happen. History involves both good and bad things happening and a TL that's nothing but sunshine and roses is not only boring but also unrealistic and realism should be the primary concern when discussing history here. If anything, you should be criticized if you don't write about bad things when such things are relevant.
 
Ok. The results are clear.
Another question, please.

Is it possible to write about bad things, without being attacked by members thinking that I actually condone them?

I mean something like this: A ruler in my ATL does something cruel or racist or whatever.
I imagine that some members will jump at throat thinking I am a sadist or a racist or whatever.

Can this be mitigated, for example by using footnotes, disclaimers etc?
It's a very simple test: Are we supposed to be cheering for the person in question? Are we meant to hope for his or her downfall?
 
It's a very simple test: Are we supposed to be cheering for the person in question? Are we meant to hope for his or her downfall?
It could very well be neither and just a case of a historical or alternately-historical figure doing something we'd call horrible but to them was just a routine or not especially horrific practice.

EDIT: Let's use an example, shall we? Say you are writing an alternate version of the 2nd Baron's War, in the 1260's, wherein the Baronial forces aren't wiped out at Evesham and continue to fight the Royalists. From a modern perspective the rebels seem the most sympathetic side, given that they essentially championed representative government (obviously not democracy, they were led by feudal elites after all) and opposed the absolutist monarchy. However, it would not be egregious or incorrect to have in said TL Baronial soldiers brutally torturing captured enemy soldiers, or even mutilating dead enemy leaders. This was a thing that happened in those times, such a thing even happened to the rebels' leader Simon de Montfort IOTL and given the behavior of medieval soldiers it should not be out of line to depict even those from the more sympathetic side engaging in such cruelties so as to add some form of realism and basically keep the TL more grounded than a pro-Baronial screed or something.
 
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Zagan

Donor
It could very well be neither and just a case of a historical or alternately-historical figure doing something we'd call horrible but to them was just a routine or not especially horrific practice.

EDIT: Let's use an example, shall we? Say you are writing an alternate version of the 2nd Baron's War, in the 1260's, wherein the Baronial forces aren't wiped out at Evesham and continue to fight the Royalists. From a modern perspective the rebels seem the most sympathetic side, given that they essentially championed representative government (obviously not democracy, they were led by feudal elites after all) and opposed the absolutist monarchy. However, it would not be egregious or incorrect to have in said TL Baronial soldiers brutally torturing captured enemy soldiers, or even mutilating dead enemy leaders. This was a thing that happened in those times, such a thing even happened to the rebels' leader Simon de Montfort IOTL and given the behavior of medieval soldiers it should not be out of line to depict even those from the more sympathetic side engaging in such cruelties so as to add some form of realism and basically keep the TL more grounded than a pro-Baronial screed or something.

This is correct. Thank you. (an example works wonders)
 
As long as it is sensible and you clearly are supportive of it then go ahead.
I could see things getting rather iffy if for example a Balkan nationalist writes some wish fulfiment wank where all his people's neighbours get wiped out.
 
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