Everyone gets US joining Axis wrong even on youtube. So many possibilities.

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makemap

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Sure you're not thinking of War Plan Red, in case of a conflict with the UK?
Nearly all major nations developed these sorts of contingency plans, some of them quite fanciful and unlikely, just to cover all conceivable bases in case of a conflict - any conflict.
Doesn't really explain how it makes it likely, or even possible, that the US would intervene on the Axis side, short of a "Silver Shirts" coup or something equally insane :)
Now, just as a thought exercise, maybe this could be interesting... but be aware you're likely to get lambasted for the improbability of it....
Yes, I'm thinking about War Plan Red, just happened the US did War Plan Black first because they thought the Germans are winning. A temporary alliance with Axis will be obvious an choice to complete War Plan Red before igniting War Plan Black. Instead of using M3 Lee against Germans in North Africa, used them to invade Canada is an obvious choice.
 
Yes, I'm thinking about War Plan Red, just happened the US did War Plan Black first because they thought the Germans are winning
That’s not the way war planning works. You make war plans for possible eventualities, real or imagined so that the planners are kept in practice and so that you have something to fall back on if things come up. Ie thst plan I mentioned involving the girls scoutd basically means “insurrection by group with heirarchy and significant public sympathy.”

War Plan Red wasn’t planned because the US wanted war with Britain, or thought it likely. It was so they had a playbook if war came for whatever reason. So when was came with Japan OTL the US dusted off War Plan Orange, adapted it to circumstance, and then implemented it.
 
Yes, I'm thinking about War Plan Red, just happened the US did War Plan Black first because they thought the Germans are winning. A temporary alliance with Axis will be obvious an choice to complete War Plan Red before igniting War Plan Black. Instead of using M3 Lee against Germans in North Africa, used them to invade Canada is an obvious choice.
Okay, but why would they enact War Plan Red? Wars aren't started in vacuums based solely on contingency planning. Why are they throwing in their lot with the Axis?

Because no, the US didn't enact Black because the Germans were winning. They enacted Black because the Germans declared war on them first and the US had decided after the Fall of France that they weren't going to tolerate Germany dominating the continent.
 
Yes, I'm thinking about War Plan Red, just happened the US did War Plan Black first because they thought the Germans are winning. A temporary alliance with Axis will be obvious an choice to complete War Plan Red before igniting War Plan Black. Instead of using M3 Lee against Germans in North Africa, used them to invade Canada is an obvious choice.
The U.S. didn't implement Plan Black, it implemented Rainbow 5. Plan Black was a WWI plan.
 
Last I heard, Vichy France was neutral, not a member of the axis.
Yes, there was collaboration, especially from mid 41 onwards, but neutral they were and neutral they stayed until the allies invaded the colonies (eg Syria, North Africa) or the Germans took over.
 
The tricky part of US alliance is USSR and Japan. If USSR attacked Germany first, I'm pretty sure US might change their mind supporting USSR under "War Plan White", this is where Hitler did a grave mistake igniting Barbarossa while still fighting Brits. The Japs on the hand everyone will most likely gang up on them for being backstabbers by attacking the Chinese and doing Pearl Harbour.
A UK being arrogant and trying to "counterbalance" the US might back japan or you get the US deciding to at least be a cobelligerant in the pacific/not embargo japan due to 20+ years of british lecturing/harassment.

Then again with a POD of 1918, you could perhaps shift japanese strategy towards trying to find a manageable client in part of china rather than trying to conquer it, so less offensive than OTL's japanese policies in the area. Taking the british/french/dutch east indies is a natural followon after 1939 ofc
 
I agree with the threadtitle. Indeed everyone is getting the US joining the Axis wrong. In the sense that everyone who is getting the US to join the US usually loops through several extremely implausible loops to get them to join the Axis in the first place.

The rest of the OP's reasoning makes no sense, for the reasons others already have mentioned.
 
Okay, but why would they enact War Plan Red? Wars aren't started in vacuums based solely on contingency planning. Why are they throwing in their lot with the Axis?

Because no, the US didn't enact Black because the Germans were winning. They enacted Black because the Germans declared war on them first and the US had decided after the Fall of France that they weren't going to tolerate Germany dominating the continent.
Maybe someone shelved the plans in the wrong file cabinet and when the order to execute Plan Red they executed the wrong plan?
 
US always had War plans to dominate the world, so a scenario where US fights the world alone is highly possible as much as Nazi Germany and USSR.
Plan Red was useful for showing the difficulties and challenges in a Two Ocean War. It also gave the US Army planners something to do, just like the Navy had War Plan Orange. This morphed into the Rainbow Coalition Plans. The navy that smashed Japan was built by the Fall of France. This cost Japan 18 months head start that the USN had worried would take the US too long to build a navy big enough to do the job.

Germany sucked at coalition warfare. Sure Germany could beat one other power like Austria or Denmark or France and win but after that but after 1870 they could also only beat Russia or France and that was it.
This scenario will happen if USA use War Plan Red first instead of War Plan Black which they used in WW2.
They did. late 1930's gaming against Red showed what Caribbean islands the US would want and then they got them in 1940. Then the US Army went, cool - strategic bombing offensive coming right up.

#3 Italy will remain a German ally as it controls entire North Africa, thus help Germany against USSR even more in Operation Barbarossa.
...um you mean like holding the flanks at Stalingrad help?

#5 Combine tactics of German famous U-boat army and US naval carrier groups, Britain would not stand a chance to defend itself from Naval Invasion.
Weee, UK invaded by Nazi flying tanks made in USA.
m3-lee-tank-getting-air-during-training-world-war-two-war-is-hell-store.jpg
 

Garrison

Donor
A UK being arrogant and trying to "counterbalance" the US might back japan or you get the US deciding to at least be a cobelligerant in the pacific/not embargo japan due to 20+ years of british lecturing/harassment.
Problem there is that Britain and Japan were allies in WWI, indeed the most likely way the British would try and counterbalance the USA and upset them is precisely by maintaining that alliance and supporting Japan.
 
People obviously keep forgetting that Italy only switched sides when they were losing. French had allied Germany under Vichy France. The whole winning Desert Rats Campaign is because the Lend-Lease M3 Lee 75mm cannon is able to shoot far into Panzer tanks that the British didn't had earlier and constantly rely on the useless close range pom-pom guns in tank battles. Everyone forgets that there was an Anti-comintern pact built up with Germany before Jap-China war happen which Germany supported Chinese first. First time Churchill tanks were used, they lost the battle. Without US Sherman tanks Firefly tanks don't exist, no effective anti-tiger tanks. British always had terrible tanks til US jumped into help.

US always had War plans to dominate the world, so a scenario where US fights the world alone is highly possible as much as Nazi Germany and USSR.

Brazil had relations with Canada in 1941 before declaring war against Nazi Germany in 1942. Brazil only declared war after sinking of their ship by German U-boats in 1942, just like US declaring war.

Many things will happen had US joined Axis. This scenario will happen if USA use War Plan Red first instead of War Plan Black which they used in WW2.
#1 No lend lease support for Allies like Britain or USSR. Meaning no Sherman, Stuart or M3 Lee tanks. Which will cost British from winning in African Campaign.

#2 Britain will fall instantly. Not only does Britain has to fight Germany, they have to now fight US naval Forces which will isolated British Isle from having military equipment brought over. This will change Hitler tactics from possibly invading the USSR Earlier and do a land invasion on Britain with US naval support.

#3 Italy will remain a German ally as it controls entire North Africa, thus help Germany against USSR even more in Operation Barbarossa.

#4 The divided French will no longer be divided supporting both Americans and German troops in France to plan invasion against USSR and Britain. Rebels would either give up or completely destroyed under Vichy France(French ally of Germany).

#5 Combine tactics of German famous U-boat army and US naval carrier groups, Britain would not stand a chance to defend itself from Naval Invasion.

#6 Canada and USA will weaken itself on constant war. Canada may end up losing or end up holding before ceasefire called, but the entire Alliance world would support Canada over USA. US will probably end up fighting in all over the world including entire South America Continent. Canadians have great diplomatic relations with Brazil. This might end up being USA fighting all fronts not just Canada in a long war.

#7 Possible Scenario: WW2 would probably end up lasting a decade more as USA will have different alliances and fighting multiple fronts including opening a South American Campaign while most likely only having Argentina as allies.

#8 Possible Scenario: USA might end up in civil war in the middle of the fight aligned with Germans because not only of atrocities of siding with Germany racism. Many people in USA would not agree with what Germany and Japan would be doing.

#9 Possible Scenario: Asia is the most tricky one because Hitler thought the Japs will open a 2nd front against USSR which they did not. Under "Anti-comintern Pact", Germany first supported China during Japanese invasion, but later abandoned them due to being its hands full against British. US might be able to get Germany to support China instead and maybe delay any invasion against USSR while everyone else targets British and the Japanese as the Japs were caught red handed doing atrocities against Chinese by Americans journalists. Nanjing Massacre.

#10 Possible Scenario: If USA supported Japan under German axis alliances instead of China #8 and #7 will obviously happen while invasion against USSR happens with US troops in Operation Barbarossa.

#11 Spanish empire and Argentina will obviously join Axis alliance. Portugal will probably remain neutral or Join USA as it joined the war later in 1943 allowing the setup of USA bases. Portugal and Spain was in a neutral Iberian Pact. So they might stay out of the war as they are thinking who was stronger.

#12 Nazi Germany, Hitler is going die either ways because there are German plans for regime changes which US might support for their war plan effort. Assassination plans changes. Like the new kills the old for power.

#13 Unlucky 13th other Scenarios after Axis domination or Allies won.
a) US vs the world
b) Never ending war for everyone that has to start from scratch after the Great WW2 while all leaders got ousted if Axis wins.
c) Nazi Germany(basically the Cold War enemy as USSR is gone) vs her allies and rest of the world.
d) Actual world peace with US supporting China to destroy both Fascism and Communism in a brutal way. With China on US side supported by Americans everything gets done, no easy surrendering.
e) US vs Axis Alliance(Betrays US due to racism)
f) Alliance win, USSR is the main super power while people still supporting Communism. British almost completely wiped out. US is divided into territories for multiple countries of control.
g) Japanese alliances vs rest of the world using millions of conquered Asian men conscription(mostly Chinese puppets).

#14 Shit forgot about India, but they are merely concentrated in Asia. Without Naval support they might end up rebelling against British and break free to form their own country except when Japan invades. US is going to either choose to help Japan or go against her. Read Indian Collaboration with Axis. India would not have actually stuck with the British if US joined the Axis. They might rebel against British and help US.

This is the problem with Japan, they keep stabbing allies in the back. They are the tricky ones.
Is this considered "trolling out of the gate"?

So much wrong with this post!
 
Problem there is that Britain and Japan were allies in WWI, indeed the most likely way the British would try and counterbalance the USA and upset them is precisely by maintaining that alliance and supporting Japan.
Yep. Things like this are why the US in the axis scenario is in the territory of 1-5% likelihood and not really _plausible_. If you want to do it, it's definitely possible sans asbs but either be prepared to come up with a ton of groundwork for it or be like me and admit low probability dice rolls involved.
 
The technical details like the 75mm memes kind of pale in comparison to the freaking US of A somehow being in the Axis.
 
Time to fix Portugal timeline. Thanks, that fixes Portugal neutrality issue. Korea is a separate country would not be colonized under US. The whole NK/SK war is because USSR invaded from the north to free the Koreans while US invaded the South. Most likely won't happen if US takes whole Korea alone to free them from Japs. I can see Portuguese getting involved in the Asian wars due to controlling Macau, but they were untouch by Japs as they respected their neutrality.
I could see the Japanese getting attacked by the Iberian Pact due to the US wanting to recruit more allies against Japan
 
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