European countries loose ALL colonies.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by HistoricalArthropod, May 15, 2019.

  1. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    The Timorese and the Malaysian Malay people objected as well (as does a significant chunk of the population of Aceh). Indonesia appears not to have allowed trivial objections of that sort to dissuade them.

    Indeed, after thirty years of occupation, protests and guerrilla warfare.

    British crown colonies for 60% of the twentieth century.

    Historic claims to sparsely populated territory. Obviously any "Goa" would have to be pulled before the UN recognised the former territory as a nation.

    Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland remained British protectorates up until 1966.

    I have been talking historically across the twentieth century, not just now in 2019.
    There is an underlying assumption there that race and ethnicity trump all other considerations. Now that is often true, but the German Swiss for instance have never (not since the 1840s at all events) wanted to be part of Germany or Austria and Malaysia has shown no desire to be assimilated with Indonesia. Nor have unification attempts in the Arab nations ever worked very well. Many Chinese in Macau and Hong Kong were extremely relieved not to be part of Mao's PRC because they had a degree of liberty of conscience, religion and economic activity that they would not have enjoyed in the unoccupied Chinese territories.
     
    Rath and mayboro like this.
  2. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Is there a way to get that?
     
  3. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    Maybe some convoluted Kaiserreich scenario variant.
     
  4. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    The whole thing of French Guiana being independent is more based on the fact that people there feel that their needs are being addressed by France, by fact that they feel like French citizens not second class and that there is greater value to being part of France as opposed to be independent.
     
  5. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, the victors of a war don't always care about the opinions of the locals when carving up territory, just look at the middle east after ww1.

    If France was some genocidal, ultranationalist state run by a megalomaniac, the victors would punish it very harshly. French Guiana would be given to the US or maybe Brazil as a 'prize' for participating in the war against The Enemy (TM). See what I mean?
     
    ShortsBelfast likes this.
  6. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    Yes but in each case then one colonial empire be substituted by another and with Soviet Union as a friend it would become another insurgent hell hole till the occupier gets out. Unless that occupier is another maniacal tyrant who commits genocide to keep control.
     
  7. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    I mean, this is all assuming the fascist French regime doesn't start making life worse for its overseas territories, making them want to break away.
     
  8. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    Correct but the question of the thread was if the Europeans forced to give up all colonies. The option to absorb a colony such as Goa or Hong Kong is only possible if the two are of same ethnic and religious group. Brazil occupying French speaking it Guatemala taking over Belize or leads to war and oppression.

    There were or are still several overseas territories that don’t fit the assimilation or granting independence make sense.
     
  9. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, I didn't specifically say it had to be forceful. I just said all colonies had to go. Peaceful and forceful means are allowed.
     
    ShortsBelfast likes this.
  10. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2007
    Location:
    UK, EU (for the moment), Earth
    How are you classing the Canaries, Azores and Madeira in this scenario? Since they aren't really in Europe in any meaningful sense (especially the Canaries).
     
  11. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    I actually don't know. I guess not Europe. Canaries are definitely in need of eviction, but the rest I'm not so sure.
     
  12. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Would it take nuclear war for a complete and total decolonization?
     
  13. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    To use the Paradox Interactive game vocabulary, once some regions are considered core, yeah, it's pretty hard to get them out of their original nation. TBH, I think you tend to not understand the difference between "colonies" and "overseas territories". When the overwhelming majority of the population considers itself fully part of the rest of the country despite an ocean separating them, that the administration is fully integrated, the legal rights are the same and so on, it's no longer a colony, and you would need to force a separation on that territory against the will of the local population. In 2019? European countries don't have colonies anymore (except maybe, just maybe, New Caledonia for France, but the population* is voting pretty clearly for remaining within the territory and its status should be normalized within a few decades at very most): they have overseas territories which are just as much part of the country as the metropolitan ones.

    Decolonization is over, what remains are territories willingly part of a country, in respect of the right for self-determination.

    * the population that voted for it was restricted to the people who have been born on the territory and have been living there for quite a long time, in a way that was accepted by the independantist movement.
     
    mayboro and Zagan like this.
  14. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, I don't mean today. Of course it would be impossible today, but in the early 20th century?
     
  15. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    The 20th century happened, and the colonies eventually became independent in OTL. The overseas territories already had that status back then and didn't look for independence
     
    Remitonov likes this.
  16. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, I want to change that because alt hist. Hence, I am figuring out how to limit western European countries to only their european metropole.
     
  17. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    The issue is that you cannot just grant independence to places like India or Indonesia and definitely Africa before WWII as expect the same countries to emerge. India will break apart sand with Indonesia and Africa become hodgepodge of little countries fighting each other. While you may dislike the European countries and want them put in their little corner by removing them you are creating a huge power vacuum that will be filled by warlords, pirates and would be entrepreneurs.

    So in a rush to grant the colonies independence remember the English saying “ don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”.
     
    Zagan likes this.
  18. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    So you want to break down countries on arbitrary lines despite the will of the local population? The only way that can be done is through particularly punitive surrender terms, and even then... Alsace-Lorraine didn't go well, as you can remember. To get what you want, you need unconditionnal surrender from all these countries to a country that has the military power and the political will to break them down for arbitrary reasons that aren't making much geopolitical sense.
     
  19. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, weather such a thing would be good for the local populations depends on the exact events, but that's not the goal here.

    If breaking away all extra continental territory is truly impossible, then can we at least get it to be more than otl? Like, a central powers US
     
  20. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    Oh you want to strip the bad Europeans away and to put the benevolent and good US in there place. Ok, that worked out really well for the native Americans.