European countries loose ALL colonies.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by HistoricalArthropod, May 15, 2019.

  1. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    After 1900, would it be possible to have western European colonial powers to loose ALL of their non European territory? Like, I really do mean all of it, not even small islands are retained. A most thorough decolonization. By the end of all this, Britain should only be territorially restricted to the Isles, France is only the mainland and Corsica, Netherlands only in the low country area, etc.
     
  2. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    The problem is that many of the small islands and remote colonies are unsustainable as independent countries and the people in those colonies or territories would not welcome being "incorporated" violently in many cases into neighboring countries. Which is in many cases replacing one form of colonialism for another.
     
  3. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Well, I didn't say it had to be peaceful. But wouldn't being part of a neighboring country mean they are with people more similar to them? Like India and Goa for example.

    Anyhow, what other countries can "pull a Goa"? Perhaps Brazil with French Guiana, as a parallel to the Spanish American war maybe?
     
  4. Lalli Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    United Kingdom: Bit tricky. It could lost all of its Caribbean islands if Western Indian Federation survives. Pitcairn, Falkland, Chagos Islands and Gibraltar are trickier at least with 1900 POD. Perhaps UK would decide give Falkland to Argentina and Gibraltar to Spain but Pitcairn and Chagos Islands are more difficult. They aren't sustainable as independent nation and not sure if anyone would want them. And even more difficult is these small islands between Africa and South America.

    France: Only way is very different WW2. Perhaps France lost WW1 and lost some colonies to Germany. Then revanchist France and revanchist Russia/USSR begin WW2 and declare war to Germany. UK and USA ally with Germany and defeat France and it lost all of its remaining colonies. But this seems bit implausible due several reasons.

    Netherlands: Even more destructive occupation during WW2 and after the war Dutch government sells its Caribbean islands to USA.

    Denmark: Probably easiest to achieve. After WW2 Denmark sells Greenland to USA and recognises independence of Faroe Islands.

    USA: There is not way how it could lost all of itsd small island colonies. These are not viable as independent nations and are too small being state.

    But there hardly is way total 100 % decolonisation without global nuclear war.
     
  5. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    Brazil trying to invade French Guyana would end very, very badly for Brazil. The logistics to support an invasion would be terribly unwelcoming (hundreds if not thousands of km of jungle to cross and the border is a handful of easily destroyed bridges linking two landmasses covered with jungle). Then Guyana holds the Kourou spaceport, which is an absolutely strategic asset for the entirety of the European Union and also used by Russia, meaning the Brazilian representative in the UN would suddenly start wondering why everyone else doesn't come within 50 metres of him/her. Then you've got the Foreign Legion nesting in the jungle itching for a remake of Predator (with added "hon hon"). Then you've got the French Navy (and probably various European ones) which is less outclassing the Brazilian one and more outschooling it entirely, including (but not limited to) an aircraft carrier that can bring firepower that the Brazilian air force on its whole would not like to face. Then there's the final issue of the kinda psychotic French nuclear policy when its territory is concerned, with Guyana being considered a full-blown part of the territory, not some colony or whatever, having been French for longer than various parts of Metropolitan France like most of Savoy, meaning an ASMP-A on the border bridges or off the coast wouldn't actually be out of the equation if things get dicey. Just as a reminder of the nature of things.
     
    sendô, mayboro, eios21 and 7 others like this.
  6. Thomas Wilkins Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2019
    Naval matters don't care about a land invasion. While the French has the firepower and support from the EU, Brazil can throw in as many forces as it can due to having a higher population than France and being right next door to French Guiana.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  7. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Maybe some of the colonial powers find themselves on the wrong end of a world war and have their colonies stripped as punishment?
     
  8. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    The Caribbean could of worked or even Canada take over Bermuda, Caicos and Cayman islands with combination of Western Indian Federation. But Falklands and Gibraltar are trading one form of colonialism for occupation and eventually forced expulsion or leaving of the current inhabitants that do not speak the same language or part of same group.

    Again the locals would object and either demand independence or revolt against the occupiers.


    This is more feasible but they become independent and only reason they not is that they receive greater value in being part of the Netherlands than independent.


    Faroe could be independent but you are again substituting one form of very off hand colonialism in case of Greenland with heavy handed American colonialism.


    Also Spain loosing it enclaves in Morocco would result in the evacuation of all the Spanish speaking people of those enclaves.

    But there hardly is way total 100 % decolonisation without global nuclear war.[/QUOTE]


    The issue is that For
     
  9. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    But the Americans did pursue this to all Europeans and where the local population wanted independence they received it. Only those areas with large proportion of the population wishing to remain linked to the mother European country stayed. Which in all cases were small peripheral territories.
     
  10. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    Logistics, my lad, logistics.

    You wanna invade THIS:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    This is not a land invasion, this is having your troops cross a good thousand km of jungle, THEN easily destroyed bridges over large rivers, then a few hundred km jungle before reaching the only valuable points, which are all conveniently on the coast, a coast which is under full naval and airborne control by the defender. And population stopped being a critical element for the available forces roughly... a century ago.

    Logistics don't care about your population size, for it is much, much easier to send a force from Europe to Guyana by sea than from Brazil to Cayenne by land.

    BTW, you wanna defend this bridge against top of the line fighter bombers firing stealth cruise missiles, as well as world-class special forces, if you want to support any invasion:

    [​IMG]

    Yes, that's the border with Brazil. Basically? A single French ship could turn Guyana into an island without anything Brazil could do about it.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
    Rath, mayboro, TimTurner and 4 others like this.
  11. Mr_Fanboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2016
    For most islands in the Caribbean and Pacific, the easiest alternative would be having the United States buy or conquer them.
     
  12. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    On yeah that would work out great.

    Better the devil you know that one you don’t know.
     
    Rufus Shinra likes this.
  13. HistoricalArthropod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Would Spaniards in Morocco have it much worse than Moroccans in Spain?
     
  14. ShortsBelfast Events, dear boy, events

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Ah yes, unite them with good Indian Catholics instead of those heathen Portuguese polytheists;)

    1) Indonesia with Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore;
    2) Indonesia with East Timor
    3) China with Hong Kong and Macau;
    4) Honduras with Belize;
    5) Venezuela with Guyana;
    6) Greece with Cyprus;
    7) Turkey with Cyprus;
    8) Italy with Malta;
    9) Morocco with Ceuta and Melilla;
    10) South Africa/Anzania with Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana;
    11) Argentina with the Falklands and South Georgia
     
    John I of Brazil likes this.
  15. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    The issue is that in case of both Pondicherry and Goa the majority of the inhabitants were either Indian or mixed and fit in with surrounding country or absorbing country. Same with both Macau and Hong Kong where 90% of the population were ethnic Chinese and spoke different language.

    Here my answer to the other points:
    1) Indonesia with Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore; - the Ethnic Chinese in Singapore reject the Malaysia union so we going to occupy them?
    2) Indonesia with East Timor - again people rejected the union with occupying country.
    3) China with Hong Kong and Macau; - see above
    4) Honduras with Belize; - different country and language as well as culture, be occupying and invading not separate. Anyway separate country already.
    5) Venezuela with Guyana; different country and language as well as culture, be occupying and invading not separate. Anyway separate country already.
    6) Greece with Cyprus; Cyprus is comprised of two groups who are ethnic and religious different and antagonist. result Bloodshed
    7) Turkey with Cyprus; Cyprus is comprised of two groups who are ethnic and religious different and antagonist. result Bloodshed
    8) Italy with Malta; different country and language as well as culture, be occupying and invading not separate. Anyway separate country already.
    9) Morocco with Ceuta and Melilla; different country and language as well as culture, be occupying and invading not separate. Anyway separate country already.
    10) South Africa/Anzania with Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana; separate country already and not included in this discussion.
    11) Argentina with the Falklands and South Georgia - different country and language as well as culture, be occupying and invading not separate. Anyway separate country already.

    The issue I was bring up is that we cannot have Brazil invading French Guiana or similarly Venezuela invading Guyana. In both cases like others we not comparing the situation there to Macau with China or Goa with India. How would the Goa-India have happened if the majority of the population was European and African with minority of Indian National. In that case by1960 would India have accepted them as an independent country or still invaded and expel any who objected?
     
    Whiteshore likes this.
  16. Lusitania Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Location:
    Winnipeg / Lusitania
    Yes I believe so, economically, politically and culturally. We talking about Moroccans who choose to emigrate to Spain as opposed to Spanish being forcibly incorporated into another country.
     
  17. pompejus Hertog van Gelre

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    For the Netherlands it should not be too hard. Aruba was already on a track towards independence. It just decided it didn't want to in the end. It could easily decide to go independent. If it does, it is likely that Curacao, Bonaire and St Maarten would do the same thing. Maybe it needs some nudge from the Netherlands (the islands are a moneydrain, I doubt there would be much resistance from the Dutch side). Actualy, one way would be more involvement from the Dutch government inthe local affairs. That could do the trick. Bonaire for example isn't happy that they have to recognise gay marriage. Several islands aren't happy with Dutch involvement with their financial status (the Dutch position is basicly that if we give them money, we want some involvement with what they do with it, especialy trying to reduce corruption and ties to crime). That could make the islands decide to chose independence. The only problems are St Eustatius and Saba, which are probably too small for an independent country.Lets just say they become part of St Maarten.

    For france, you need a different kind of view on decolonisation. If they look at it more like the Dutch did, I could easily see an independent French Guayana and other parts.
     
    Whiteshore likes this.
  18. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    No. New Caledonia, maybe as there was and still is a large native population (there is currently a vote campaign about it), but Guyana's population is made mainly of French and their kids who came there or were sent there as part of a penal colony. It's like Australia, except much smaller, unable to sustain itself and with full administrative integration with the mainland. New Caledonia, again, is a toss-up though the popular vote there leans towards staying with France. You therefore could envision a TL where it leaves. Same for Mayotte, too, as the rest of the Comores voted to leave so you could get a TL where Mayotte does too (amusingly, comparing the fate of Mayotte and the rest of the Comores is a pretty good argument for New Caledonia to not request independence). French Guyana is kinda like Hawaii, but with a lot less native population and national territory for much longer while New Caledonia would be more like Porto Rico. To get French Guyana independent, you either need a much earlier PoD or events like France being Nazi Germany in that TL and getting defeated the same way.
     
  19. Noscoper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Location:
    Internet
    Isn't this otl portugal
     
  20. Noscoper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Location:
    Internet
    If those enclaves were incorporated into Morocco they likely would have autonomy even if they didn't. It's not like Morocco is just going to ethnically cleanse them for the sake of it.