European connections with ancient Mexico

Had the Spanish failed to conquer Mexico, would the English, the French or other Europeans have had been able to establish contact with the locals (Aztecs, Chichimecas, Purépecha) during the first half of the 16th century? Keep in mind this would have had been done amidst the Spanish Caribbean and that the Spanish had signed the Treaty of Tordesillas with Portugal in 1494.

Thank you.
 
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Establish contact, in the sense of having some explorer take the tedious trip and talk to the natives, yes, maybe.
Maintaining a stable connection, no. Not just because of the Spaniards, but also because they would have spread tales of human-sacrificing heathens etc., and also because it´s really much less accessible than other parts of the huge continent.
 
Establish contact, in the sense of having some explorer take the tedious trip and talk to the natives, yes, maybe.
Maintaining a stable connection, no. Not just because of the Spaniards, but also because they would have spread tales of human-sacrificing heathens etc., and also because it´s really much less accessible than other parts of the huge continent.

They have stuff to trade. That would be reason enough for prolonged contact. Especially since the days of the Aztecs are clearly numbered, and I'm sure someone would get the idea that European equipment and/or horses would be a hot commodity. If not natives equipped with them, then certainly European mercenaries. Mexico's Caribbean coast is obviously the best site for this since it's the closest to European settlements in the Caribbean. I could see mercenaries of any European country operating in Mexico by the end of the century.

The biggest issue might as well be the Spanish, and I'd assume they're going to want in on this market too.
 
Establish contact, in the sense of having some explorer take the tedious trip and talk to the natives, yes, maybe.
Maintaining a stable connection, no. Not just because of the Spaniards, but also because they would have spread tales of human-sacrificing heathens etc., and also because it´s really much less accessible than other parts of the huge continent.

Europeans traded with Muslims and also with the Ashanti, who practiced human sacrifice.
 
Europeans traded with Muslims and also with the Ashanti, who practiced human sacrifice.
Yes, but here we're talking about the first half of the 16th century when OTL England and France showed only limited interest in America yet. Plus the Spaniards in the way - and rather ferocious tales i circulation one would expect.
 
Yes, but here we're talking about the first half of the 16th century when OTL England and France showed only limited interest in America yet. Plus the Spaniards in the way - and rather ferocious tales i circulation one would expect.

I'm questioning Spanish strength in the Caribbean had they failed to conquer Mexico.
 
I'm questioning Spanish strength in the Caribbean had they failed to conquer Mexico.
In the Caribbean, native societies were less potent adversaries, also spanish naval power there should be easy to maintain. There just have to go a few things wrong in the Mexican campaign, doesn't require a very weak Spain.
 
France and England would be a bit interesting, but I wonder about a filibuster by Dutch Calvinists technically subject to the Spanish crown, or the Knights of Saint John hearing about Cortez's failed conquest of wealthy pagans that sacrifice people and deciding to take a crack at them. Conquest by small fringe groups is possibly a lot of fun.

As for Spain: if you somehow butterfly them getting Mexico and Peru you're going to have a huge butterfly indeed. The economic shift alone would be staggering, as Caribbean cash crops require a bit of a different metropolitan relationship than massive gold deposits.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea; would love to see what comes of it.
 
France and England would be a bit interesting, but I wonder about a filibuster by Dutch Calvinists technically subject to the Spanish crown, or the Knights of Saint John hearing about Cortez's failed conquest of wealthy pagans that sacrifice people and deciding to take a crack at them.

So you think it would have had been possible?
 
So you think it would have had been possible?

Oh, definitely possible. It might require the tacit permission of the Spanish crown, but having a group establish themselves in Mexico then turn against the Spanish crown is possible. The same factors that helped Cortez might play in favor of a small group from the outside. Also, Charles V is Holy Roman Emperor as well as King of Spain, so a group of adventurers from the HRE is also a possibility.
[I now have a wacky idea for a Lutheran Aztec Mexico].

I picked Calvinists and hospitalers respectively because the Calvinists might translate the bible into the vernacular and the hospitalers were probably the best medical people available and would have tried to mitigate the epidemics. Interesting nock-on effects either way.
 
Would it be an historical mistake to picture the Spanish trading with ancient Mexicans to get the metals they wanted?

Depends. They need to adapt to the concept and art of metalworking first. Most likely is the same thing in the US/Canada occurs--the natives only request the finished goods, which are received, no doubt in exchange for gold. However, since the societies were far more complex in the Valley of Mexico than in the modern US/Canada, given a few decades and there'll be an indigenous metalworking industry (at least with the stronger states), assuming the metals are present and able to be obtained. The smaller/metal-poor states will probably still be dependent on importing finished goods.

I'm questioning Spanish strength in the Caribbean had they failed to conquer Mexico.

The native societies there were pretty rapidly dying due to both disease and probably the single worst case of widespread brutality Spain perpetuated. Since the time of Columbus, the natives there were being butchered.

France and England would be a bit interesting, but I wonder about a filibuster by Dutch Calvinists technically subject to the Spanish crown, or the Knights of Saint John hearing about Cortez's failed conquest of wealthy pagans that sacrifice people and deciding to take a crack at them. Conquest by small fringe groups is possibly a lot of fun.

As for Spain: if you somehow butterfly them getting Mexico and Peru you're going to have a huge butterfly indeed. The economic shift alone would be staggering, as Caribbean cash crops require a bit of a different metropolitan relationship than massive gold deposits.

I don't know about the potential to conquer the region in one swoop like Cortes did, especially since disease is getting introduced one way or another, and I think the mortality rates (not the 95% historically but still huge amounts of death) combined with perhaps some European trade in weaponry will cause the Aztec Empire to shatter. It's in the interest of European merchants to have a divided Mexico. Certain states, like anything on the Caribbean coast, might get conquered in the long run.

But for Mexico's sake, a military conquest might be less desirable than trade in the long run, and we only have to look at the Dutch in Indonesia to see that wholescale conquest might be out of the picture and instead, grabbing some ports here and there plus protectorates and extensive trade a more logical operation. Mexico itself will probably go to hell for a few decades with repeated epidemics and extensive warfare amongst the states both already there and those emerging from the collapse of the Aztecs. Fertile ground for mercenaries and trade in weaponry and horses. Some mercenaries might be able to take over a state or two.

I picked Calvinists and hospitalers respectively because the Calvinists might translate the bible into the vernacular and the hospitalers were probably the best medical people available and would have tried to mitigate the epidemics. Interesting nock-on effects either way.

Nahuatl language fluorished in Spanish Mexico though, as did Quechua in South America. Spain actually helped spread Quechua, and I'm not sure about Nahuatl, but I wouldn't be surprised there either.
 
The native societies there were pretty rapidly dying due to both disease and probably the single worst case of widespread brutality Spain perpetuated. Since the time of Columbus, the natives there were being butchered.

Would the Spanish have had been strong enough to enforce the Treaty of Tordesillas without Mexico and Peru?
 
I don't know about the potential to conquer the region in one swoop like Cortes did, especially since disease is getting introduced one way or another, and I think the mortality rates (not the 95% historically but still huge amounts of death) combined with perhaps some European trade in weaponry will cause the Aztec Empire to shatter. It's in the interest of European merchants to have a divided Mexico. Certain states, like anything on the Caribbean coast, might get conquered in the long run.

1. Why would European trade be lethal to the Aztec Empire?
2. I also picture a divided Mexico, with European countries trading and allying with the various Mexican states.
 
But for Mexico's sake, a military conquest might be less desirable than trade in the long run, and we only have to look at the Dutch in Indonesia to see that wholescale conquest might be out of the picture and instead, grabbing some ports here and there plus protectorates and extensive trade a more logical operation.

Europeans would have had settled in the long run as they did in OTL. But I want to know if they would have had done it in the first half of the 16th century.
 
Let's not forget most of Cortez' army was made up of native Indians like the Tlaxcalans. They were more than happy to be allies to the Spanish, and would probably be willing to accept some kind official role within the Spanish Empire even if the Aztecs remain independent. Since the Aztecs are way inland, it makes other European contact very hard.

Also, disease is still going to kill off much of the native population. Full Spanish control of Mexico is probably going to happen by the time the other European powers can make contact. France and Britain will prefer to go to areas where Spain is not building influence. That allows them to expand peacefully rather than directly challenge Spanish power and start a war.
 
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