European colonization of Newfoundland AD 400

Newfoundland AD 400

Im thinking that the settlers would build a wooden palisade first, and wooden stave houses. There are salt deposits and iron deposits there, and no doubt they would find them soon enough, so they would have the ability to expand thier civilization with time.

But, the need to graze sheep and grow crops would make it nessesary for them to build outposts here and there. Sheep could be grazed between the outposts and corralled there in the night. So, we might see a few dozen grazing outposts built within a few miles of the settlement. These could be also occupied by a few families in each one, though it would be at greater risk of native attacks.

Im seeing that the seettlement would want to quickly begin building the town walls from stone, as well as the church and the houses. This takes time, but it was the Roman way to build with stone wherever possible, and the craft would be known to these peoples.

Also, the Roman knowledge of water and hydraulics would mean that within about 20 years of landing, the settlers would want to begin building aqueducts to ensure a safe and unfrozen water supply. This is problematic in Newfoundland due to the weather and climate.

Anybody know how the Romans dealth with inclimate weather regarding aqueductus contrstruction? Were there any going to Colonia, in Germany?
 
Oh I dont know if the Carthaginians would suddenly decide to rush out and tell Scipio Africanus; "Hey, I know something pretty amazing! Come and torture me to see if I am lying, or telling it all!"

And so, history sometimes turns in small circles. Capabo might have had knowledge that his shamen ancestors possessed about America.

I mean, if I were a Carthaginian, perhaps a scholar or priest, and I see the Legions tearing Carthage down, I'm clamming up tight. I might tell my kids years later what I know, I might pass it on down the line within the family. But the one thing I aint about to do is to tell the Romans about my knowledge of America.

I doubt that scenario. Thing is, I am of Saxon blood on both sides of my family and we don't have any ancient lore from father to son dating back to the Carolingian conquest. It's unlikely that anything like this would be done in the urban Romano-Punic populations in North Africa. Much more likely there is either a written tradition or a broader body of knowledge about America - neither is improbable given how much ancient non-elite knowledge was lost.
 
Im thinking that the settlers would build a wooden palisade first, and wooden stave houses. There are salt deposits and iron deposits there, and no doubt they would find them soon enough, so they would have the ability to expand thier civilization with time.

But, the need to graze sheep and grow crops would make it nessesary for them to build outposts here and there. Sheep could be grazed between the outposts and corralled there in the night. So, we might see a few dozen grazing outposts built within a few miles of the settlement. These could be also occupied by a few families in each one, though it would be at greater risk of native attacks.

Im seeing that the seettlement would want to quickly begin building the town walls from stone, as well as the church and the houses. This takes time, but it was the Roman way to build with stone wherever possible, and the craft would be known to these peoples.

Also, the Roman knowledge of water and hydraulics would mean that within about 20 years of landing, the settlers would want to begin building aqueducts to ensure a safe and unfrozen water supply. This is problematic in Newfoundland due to the weather and climate.

Anybody know how the Romans dealth with inclimate weather regarding aqueductus contrstruction? Were there any going to Colonia, in Germany?

I think that will depend on where these folk come from. Not all Romans belong to urban populations. If they are used to Britain, they might decide to start with timber-framed buildings or stone drywall and not go over to dressed stone or brick for a long time, if ever. That is, after all, what they would have the skill set for and could sustain locally.

A lot of the infrastructure that defines the Roman Peace for us is based on a very deep network of trade links, skill transfers and surplus labour and wealth that no colony can match for a very long time, especially if it is one so far removed from its roots. Look at what living in the Americas was like for European settlers in a much more technologically advanced and networked age. I don't think we'll see aqueducts, stone walls and brick kilns in the first 20 years. In fact, I suspect we'll see timber-frame thatched houses, pit-fired coarseware pottery, crude iron tools, and lot of tech borrowing from the surrounding tribes. Keep in mind that even a population of thousands (which is extremely optimistic) will need to sustain its cultural base largely locally. There may be a stonemason or three, bronzecasters, painters, potters and glaziers, but they are likely to spend most of their time farming or hunting. Available materials will limit division of labour - you can't be a glazier without access to sand, soda and charcoal, and if you have to find or make it yourself, you will need to charge accordingly for your wares. Which nobody will be able to afford.

I think your model is the agri decumates and their post-Roman population, not the citybuilding efforts of Principate Rome.

Ah, you keep aqueductrs from freezing by burying them underground. It's how they did it in Germany. but really, in a climate like Germany's you don't need aqueducts except for very large cities. You just dig wells, the groundwater is ample and easy to get at.
 
an interesting point to consider would be (assuming butterflies aside), that if a colony of roman britains does establish itself in newfoundland and then becomes isolated and survives (mixing with the natives partially), what will happen when the vikings arriver?:eek: that could make for an interesting TL
 
Oh I dont know if the Carthaginians would suddenly decide to rush out and tell Scipio Africanus; "Hey, I know something pretty amazing! Come and torture me to see if I am lying, or telling it all!"

And so, history sometimes turns in small circles. Capabo might have had knowledge that his shamen ancestors possessed about America.

I mean, if I were a Carthaginian, perhaps a scholar or priest, and I see the Legions tearing Carthage down, I'm clamming up tight. I might tell my kids years later what I know, I might pass it on down the line within the family. But the one thing I aint about to do is to tell the Romans about my knowledge of America.

If the eastern coast of America was well known to the Carthaginians, it would technically stand to reason that in order to preserve their civilization, they would have established outposts somewhere beyond Roman reach. I imagine if they knew of America at all, not only would they have attempted to remodify their ships for the crossings, but they could have gone there before the Romans besieged their city.

Slightly more realistically however, they may as well have established a colony or two on the west coast of Africa.

If some knowledge of America survived among the oral re-tellings of poor and illiterate communities in North Africa, they would have become part of the local folklore. Not exactly the right basis for a private individual to attempt a venture like this.

BTW, the Phoenicians were a highly urban society. They wouldn't have had "Shamens".


As to Roman ships being unstable, well, I dont know why they would be inherrently so. Some of them were flat bottomed to go up rivers, such as the Tiber. Others were Vee hulled, well suited hull desighn for deep water. The big grain ships were fewer, but far bigger with round bows, high sterncastles sometimes even equipped with lateen sails to sail closer to the wind.

As to what kind of ship was suited to cross the Ocean? Well, how about an open decked Viking Dragonship with one big sail, little freeboard, completely exposed crew arrangements, small storage space, etc etc. Or, how about a ship such as Nina (Caravel) or Santa Maria (technological descendent of the old Hanseatic League Cogs)? It only took Mayflower 66 days to cross, and that is going all the way to Cape Cod, Mass. To Newfoundland, knock off a few days. Roman ships...maybe they could??? Im just guessing. Its fun to imagine these things sometimes.

Like I stated earlier, if the massive "Pontone" vessels of the Celtic Venetii had been eagerly adopted by the Romans after the defeat of these people by Julius Caesar during the 50's BCE, that could perhaps raise the technical possibility of a trans-Atlantic crossing.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Sailors would need to be trained in combat. Bring armor, swords, horses, possibly some professional soldiers. Horses are necessary for agriculture and war.

Bring nails, iron tools, bronze. You don't know for sure that there will be iron where you go.

Women are necessary.

All good points, except the one about women, there are already women in the New World, and if you're armed enough you'd have a chance to get some.
 
All good points, except the one about women, there are already women in the New World, and if you're armed enough you'd have a chance to get some.

Ahh, but if you're preparing the first voyage there, you don't know for sure, do you?

Besides, some guys can be married, some with sweethearts, so they might go too.
 
I doubt that scenario. Thing is, I am of Saxon blood on both sides of my family and we don't have any ancient lore from father to son dating back to the Carolingian conquest. It's unlikely that anything like this would be done in the urban Romano-Punic populations in North Africa. Much more likely there is either a written tradition or a broader body of knowledge about America - neither is improbable given how much ancient non-elite knowledge was lost.

Assuming we're talking about non-elite populations here, there would be little or no literacy. Instead there would be a long tradition of passing down stories and information by word of mouth in that era. Think of all the folklore and legends that survived for centuries before being written down. IMO that improves the possibility of some sort of legend surviving about a lost land to the west.

I've often wondered at the automatic rejection of the notion that early seamanship and ships were inadequate to reach North America from Europe. If little 25-foot Friendship sloops can cross regularly, why can't larger ships? You need skill and a sturdy ship, and the people along the Atlantic coast of Europe had both.

The Viking settlers were driven off after encounters with the locals. What's to prevent the same from happening with this group from Roman Britannica?
 
The problem with the Norse settlement of Vinland was that the colonists mostly sailed there from Greenland, which itself had only been settled one generation earlier. There wasn't exactly a vast stream of potential settlers for North America at the time. If someone found North America before settling Greenland, that may have been different.
 
A lot of the infrastructure that defines the Roman Peace for us is based on a very deep network of trade links, skill transfers and surplus labour and wealth that no colony can match for a very long time, especially if it is one so far removed from its roots. Look at what living in the Americas was like for European settlers in a much more technologically advanced and networked age. I don't think we'll see aqueducts, stone walls and brick kilns in the first 20 years. In fact, I suspect we'll see timber-frame thatched houses, pit-fired coarseware pottery, crude iron tools, and lot of tech borrowing from the surrounding tribes. Keep in mind that even a population of thousands (which is extremely optimistic) will need to sustain its cultural base largely locally.

Even more so in this case - around this time, the Dorset culture would've been the people that these Britons would have met. In OTL, according to one of the books I've been reading for a TL I'm working on, one of the causes leading to the downfall of the Dorset culture around the time 900-1000 was: A) they basically stopped using warfare (bow and arrow technology were basically lost among the Dorset culture, which prevented them from hunting caribou), and B) they were using obsolescent technology for fishing (apparently, their harpoons were not designed for anything other than hunting seals and walruses). This made them easy prey for the ancestors of the Innu in Labrador/Basse-Côte-Nord and the Beothuk in Newfoundland. Not to mention that had Romans somehow managed to cross the Atlantic, some of the Dorset culture in Newfoundland might die due to disease.

Plus - Newfoundland is not like Britain. It is MUCH colder than in Britain (because of the Labrador Current), and there's also the possibility of icebergs around the springtime and occasionally fog in the Grand Banks (since the cold Labrador Current meets with the relatively warm North Atlantic Drift at the Grand Banks). Plus, farming isn't necessarily going to work in Newfoundland - eventually, the diet would have to be supplemented by seal, walrus, and fish (if they're lucky to catch any). Personally, I would think that dwellings similar to those found in the L'Anse-aux-Meadows excavation would have been more suitable than timber-framed thatched houses - unless they learned some technology from the Dorset culture.

Thus, the end result would be a culture that in the eyes of Continental Romans would seem "primitive", but one that could potentially be adapted to local conditions - though I wonder how much change in the language of the Britons there would be due to exposure to Eskimo-Aleut languages.
 
an interesting point to consider would be (assuming butterflies aside), that if a colony of roman britains does establish itself in newfoundland and then becomes isolated and survives (mixing with the natives partially), what will happen when the vikings arriver?:eek: that could make for an interesting TL

Well, it depends on the conditions of the Norsemen arriving in Newfoundland. Remember, if Leif Eriksson did manage to spot Newfoundland (and that's a big if - the sagas are neither clear nor specific on geography), it would've most likely been on the western side of the island, where very few, if any, people lived. These "Dorset-ized" Britons would probably be living on the eastern side of the island (i.e. the Avalon Peninsula, Bonavista Bay, St.-Pierre-et-Miquelon - maybe even as far north as Grand Falls-Windsor). However, let's say that (hypothetically) some Christian Norsemen managed to make the crossing over the Atlantic and settled in the same area as these "Newfoundlanders" (a significant number of Christian Norsemen to boot - no dinky little settlement in Newfoundland, but enough for a series of settlements). In my opinion, other than a language barrier, I would think that these Christian Norsemen would find nothing different between them and the Newfoundlanders - in fact, among some of them, these Newfoundlanders would probably be seen as the remnant of Irish monks that somehow got blown off course. The latter has some precedent in oral tradition - it is said, though not yet confirmed, that when Norsemen arrived in Iceland, they found Irish books and materials.
 
Vikings meet Newfoundlanders

All very good and interesting points on the early days of the proposed colony.

But let us skip up 500 years and assume (for the sake of arguments) that the Romanized/Dorsets had developed a stable culture with one principle city and several ancilliary towns. Let us also assume that the Romanized ones culture rubbed off onto the natives, who benifitted from a great technology leap. This brings two questions to mind.

A...How far would this have spread? WOuld tribes from Canada and even the Abenaki of the US territories trade/learn technology from these Romans? Could we have seen a general advancement of the natives all over the Eastern US to a stable form of iron age civilization over the next 500 years?

B...If so, what does the North American world look like to the Vikings when they come, or even the post Columbians? Does this early contact make the Natives able to withstand the technology and European diseases that the later English colonist brought with them so that the eventual European colonization is thrwarted in the beginning?

Could one group of runaway Romans from 400 AD, (or even the much earlier Spartacus and his escapees) have the potential to change history forever?
 
All very good and interesting points on the early days of the proposed colony.

You’re welcome.

But let us skip up 500 years and assume (for the sake of arguments) that the Romanized/Dorsets had developed a stable culture with one principle city and several ancilliary towns. Let us also assume that the Romanized ones culture rubbed off onto the natives, who benifitted from a great technology leap. This brings two questions to mind.

Two points:
• If these Britons that settle in Newfoundland are from the lowest rung of society, it does not necessarily mean that they would know all the technology needed to survive in the Roman world. In this case, the closest type of culture from the Britons that could “rub off onto the natives” would be closer to the Celtic type, which would not seem strange to First Nations people.
• It could be entirely possible that the Briton settlement of Newfoundland could take place without cities and towns – at least in the sense that we see them. The closest analogue I can think for this would be the Norse landnám of the Faroes, which basically avoided towns. The basis of landnám there were fishing villages, not too different from the outport settlements of Newfoundland during the British colonization in OTL. Now, in Newfoundland’s case, there could also be the development of seasonal market centres akin to Thingvellir in Iceland, but not up to the scale of permanent towns and cities. Not saying that Newfoundland would be isolated (after all, to have a successful Briton settlement in Newfoundland, numbers are critical), but it is possible to have a “stable” culture without towns, such as the various First Nations cultures.
 
B...If so, what does the North American world look like to the Vikings when they come, or even the post Columbians? Does this early contact make the Natives able to withstand the technology and European diseases that the later English colonist brought with them so that the eventual European colonization is thrwarted in the beginning?

This is the easiest question to answer for me, since I’m working on a TL of my own regarding the whole “Vinland” thing. The best answer for this is simple: not necessarily. It could still be possible for the Britons-cum-Newfoundlanders to succumb to whatever diseases the Europeans brought with them, no matter if the colonizers are French, Portuguese, Basque, Latvian, or English, particularly if the Newfoundlanders abandoned farming if the climate made it unsustainable. (Remember – Montréal, Québec is at the same latitude as Florence, Italy, but it is MUCH colder in Montréal than in Florence, especially during the winter. I would think that even during the Medieval Warm Period, this maxim would hold true.) In which case, the Newfoundlanders would be in the same position as the Dorset culture in OTL when they were basically driven out by the Thule culture (the precedessor to the Inuit) in the High Arctic and by the ancestors of the Innu and Beothuk in Labrador and Newfoundland. Thus, even if we apply handwavium, if the Europeans wished to colonize the Western Hemisphere, there would be nothing stopping them. This is particularly true post-Black Death – none of the Newfoundlanders had been exposed to bubonic plague, and this disease alone could finish off the whole lot of them.

Now, had the Norsemen met up with the Newfoundlanders, they would probably see a similar situation to their own – indeed, it is possible that the Norsemen would see these Newfoundlanders as Irish people (even if the languages are completely different), which the Norsemen had long been in contact with. The extent of Celtic influence on modern-day Scandinavians is hotly debated today, but it would be reasonable to assume that much would be familiar to the Norsemen. History, too, could partly repeat itself as the Newfoundlanders teach the Norsemen how to survive the harsh environment that is Newfoundland.

Could one group of runaway Romans from 400 AD, (or even the much earlier Spartacus and his escapees) have the potential to change history forever?

Provided certain conditions are met, maybe.


I'm sorry that I'm breaking up your response into out-of-order chunks, but it's to make it easy for me to answer your questions.
 
Last part.

A...How far would this have spread? WOuld tribes from Canada and even the Abenaki of the US territories trade/learn technology from these Romans? Could we have seen a general advancement of the natives all over the Eastern US to a stable form of iron age civilization over the next 500 years?

Let’s break this down, question by question:
A. How far would this [the hybrid Briton/Dorset culture] have spread? It depends on well the Britons have acclimated to the environment; yet even then, the best-case scenario would most likely be Newfoundland itself – maybe even Cape Breton, where you open up a new can of worms (how do these Newfoundlanders react to the Míkmaq?) or Labrador, again opening up another can of worms (apart from the Dorset culture there, how do these Newfoundlanders react to the Maritime Archaic Tradition, whom some scholars believe are the ancestors of the Innu in Labrador and the Beothuk in Newfoundland in OTL?). Regardless, Newfoundland is going to be an interesting society – but don’t assume that any group of Romans settling in Newfoundland would suddenly make Newfoundland technologically advanced. That falls under the trap of technological determinism, which is to be avoided at all costs.

B. Would other First Nations people in the Western Hemisphere trade with the Newfoundlanders? Maybe, but Newfoundland is not necessarily a centre of action. It’s on the margins of the Western Hemisphere. Trade could probably happen, but on somewhat of a limited scale. As far as technology goes, it would actually be more realistic that, given the harsh environment that these Britons would settle in, it would be more likely if the Britons learned much from the Dorset culture, and not necessarily the other way round (after all, many of the materials needed for re-creating a Roman lifestyle would simply be not there). After all, this is what happened during post-1492 contact (and hence why many European languages have many words of Native origin).

Having said that, it could be possible that the Britons would improve on the technology introduced to them, but more likely it would probably be not only integrated into the Briton lifestyle, but also become essential features of Newfoundlander life. If these Britons brought over technology from their former lives, only those technologies that require materials already there AND are productive would probably be retained, but in an adapted form; otherwise, much technology would not be used. After all, why build huge aqueducts when you can just dig a simple hole in the ground and call it a well? (Provided this well gets covered, lest the groundwater gets frozen during the winter.) Importing materials from Europe is going to be very expensive and thus would be seen as luxury items to be dispensed with.

C. Could we have seen a general advancement of the natives all over the Eastern US (my note: and assuming, by extension, in eastern Canada) to a stable form of Iron Age civilization over the next 500 years? The short and simple answer is no. If one wished to do massive trading all over the eastern areas of North America, Newfoundland is actually a terrible base to start from. Sorry if it crushes your hopes and aspirations, but the hard truth is that there is no possible way for something like that to occur because the primary motive for these Newfoundlanders is survival. Plus, even if limited trade is possible, at this point Newfoundlanders would probably be close to self-sufficient so any form of Iron Age civilization is not possible without the intervention of ASBs.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
C. Could we have seen a general advancement of the natives all over the Eastern US (my note: and assuming, by extension, in eastern Canada) to a stable form of Iron Age civilization over the next 500 years? The short and simple answer is no. If one wished to do massive trading all over the eastern areas of North America, Newfoundland is actually a terrible base to start from. Sorry if it crushes your hopes and aspirations, but the hard truth is that there is no possible way for something like that to occur because the primary motive for these Newfoundlanders is survival. Plus, even if limited trade is possible, at this point Newfoundlanders would probably be close to self-sufficient so any form of Iron Age civilization is not possible without the intervention of ASBs.

I agree to come with a example it took almost a thousand years for ironmaking to spread from Anatolia to Northen Europe, and that's only 2000 Kilometers. The only way I can see ironmaking spread faster is that if they colonised the area. But in many ways they're in a worse position than a potential Norse colonisation of America, they lack contact with Europe (except a erratic one), and will not get new settlers or new technologies. Beside with their position, I think they will look much like Norse Greenland the first few centuries, hanging on to their life, until their farming methods has adapted to the harsher climate. But when the Norse contact them they will likely have begun to spread to the mainland.
 
indeed, it is possible that the Norsemen would see these Newfoundlanders as Irish people (even if the languages are completely different), which the Norsemen had long been in contact with.
Which is interesting because Norse legends speak of Greater Ireland which was said to be somewhere near Vinland.
 
Which is interesting because Norse legends speak of Greater Ireland which was said to be somewhere near Vinland.

That actually makes perfect sense. I wonder why Greater Ireland/Hvítramannaland is never really mentioned in the contemporary Vinland accounts - and, considering the modern history of Newfoundland, it would actually sense for Newfoundland.
 
Top